Oral Answers to Questions

NORTHERN IRELAND

The Secretary of State was asked—

Fuel Smuggling

David Jones: What recent assessment he has made of the extent of fuel smuggling in Northern Ireland.

Paul Goggins: In February, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State established a new multi-agency group within the Organised Crime Task Force to prepare a detailed enforcement strategy on fuel fraud. Later this week, I will meet my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to consider progress.

David Jones: As the Minister will be aware, more than two thirds of illegal fuel seizures in the UK occur in Northern Ireland, yet the conviction rate is declining and forfeiture orders are uncommon. Some time ago, the Secretary of State suggested that he was considering the introduction of a specific offence of fuel laundering. Can the Minister tell us what progress has been made in that regard?

Paul Goggins: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State did suggest that that specific offence was being considered. That is one matter that the working group in the Organised Crime Task Force will consider. I will consider those issues with my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary when we meet tomorrow and subsequently. It might be that such an offence would help. I am also interested to ensure that we pursue landowners who rent out land and property and then turn a blind eye to the activities that go on there. The hon. Gentleman can rest assured that the full force of law and order in Northern Ireland needs to and will bear down on the issue.

Mark Durkan: The Minister will be aware that there is concern that in future the full force of law will not bear down on those involved in fuel smuggling. With the disappearance of the Assets Recovery Agency and the retrenchment and reduction of already stressed Revenue and Customs services, people are worried that fuel smuggling and other criminal enterprise in the category of level 2 crime will not be pursued. Clearly, the police service will pursue level 1 crime and the Serious Organised Crime Agency will pursue level 3 crime. Who will pursue and have the resources and capacity to pursue level 2 crime in Northern Ireland?

Paul Goggins: What it demands, of course, is a strong partnership among all the forces of law and order and, indeed, legitimate trade. Business partnership is an essential prerequisite of enforcement action, but we need to bring together the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and also the merged SOCA and Assets Recovery Agency. All those agencies need to work together and I assure my hon. Friend that we will not let up on this. Some £15 million of criminal assets have been taken back from fuel fraudsters in recent years. That effort will be undiminished when the new merged agency comes into operation.

Patrick Cormack: Does the Minister accept that the effort needs to be increased? It is disturbing that so many people have got away with this crime, which is not a victimless crime, and that those who have been caught have not been adequately punished. Will he redouble his efforts?

Paul Goggins: Of course, the punishment of offenders is in the end a matter for the courts to determine. We are considering whether a new specific offence for fuel laundering should be introduced, but many existing offences can be prosecuted. It is important that Revenue and Customs, the police and the other agencies work together, gather the evidence and bring to justice those who break the law in such a way, because it undermines legitimate trade. That is key at a time when we are trying to build up the economy of Northern Ireland. I know that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, which the hon. Gentleman chairs, is deeply concerned about the matter. The full force of law and order will continue to bear down on the issue.

Michael Moore: Whether or not the situation is getting worse, the Minister is right to say that it is very serious. Will he give the House an assurance that he is satisfied that the cross-border arrangements are working satisfactorily? Given that some of the worsening situation seems to have been attributed to the merger of Customs and Excise and the Inland Revenue a couple of years ago, will he assure us that the proposed merger between the Assets Recovery Agency and SOCA will not lead to a further problem in this area?

Paul Goggins: I warmly welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new position as his party's spokesman on Northern Ireland. I look forward to constructive exchanges with him. I assure him that cross-border co-operation on law enforcement is a high priority. Indeed, we are considering including representation in the working group of the Organised Crime Task Force that deals with such issues from the Criminal Assets Bureau, which is based in the Republic of Ireland, and from the Irish Revenue commissioners, who are the equivalent of HMRC. We seek to bring the forces of law and order together.
	I repeat the assurances that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). From next month, the Assets Recovery Agency and SOCA will be merged. In my view, that will toughen up our attack line on organised crime rather than diminish it. It will combine the intelligence brought by SOCA with the practical hands-on experience of asset recovery work brought by the Assets Recovery Agency. The combined agency will be even more effective.

Nigel Dodds: The Minister talks about the merger of the Assets Recovery Agency and SOCA in glowing terms, but does he accept that, given what people have said today and during the consultation, there is fear that the big fish in Northern Ireland in fuel laundering and other serious crime will escape when we consider the overall objectives and priorities of SOCA? Will the Minister assure us that the godfathers in Northern Ireland and elsewhere will be pursued relentlessly and brought to book and that their assets will be seized?

Paul Goggins: I can give the hon. Gentleman an absolute assurance on that matter. There will be no thresholds imposed on Northern Ireland that relate to the rest of the United Kingdom. We will determine our own local priorities in Northern Ireland. Indeed, as soon as possible after the merger of the Assets Recovery Agency and SOCA, I shall publish a new asset recovery action plan for Northern Ireland, which will lay out what every agency is doing in order to pursue the criminal element and to recover the criminal assets that it has taken.

Stephen O'Brien: When I used to help run businesses in Northern Ireland, nothing undermined confidence in markets more than smuggling and cross-border illegal trade. Given the single land border in Northern Ireland between ourselves and Ireland, we need a border police force that really operates effectively in order to stop that undermining of confidence. Markets and market recovery in Northern Ireland are one of the best underpinners of peace, and that is why this is so important. Does the Minister agree?

Paul Goggins: The hon. Gentleman makes a very constructive remark. We have to bear down on any organised criminal activity intended to use and manipulate the border to criminal advantage. I say to the hon. Gentleman, however, that the proportion of UK duty-paid petrol that is currently consumed in Northern Ireland is up to 86 per cent. from 82 per cent. just a few years ago. Of course, some of the missing 14 per cent. is legitimate cross-border shopping. We are improving the position, but we need to do even more. He has my assurance that we will do that.

Irish National Prisoners

Philip Hollobone: How many Irish nationals are held in prisons in Northern Ireland.

Paul Goggins: As of today, there are 107 prisoners who have declared themselves to be of Irish nationality—7 per cent. of the total prison population.

Philip Hollobone: What steps is the Northern Ireland Office taking to return to their country of origin any Irish nationals, as well as nationals of other countries? There is growing concern across the United Kingdom about the number of foreign national prisoners held in British jails.

Paul Goggins: We of course have to be careful as we approach this issue because, as the hon. Gentleman will know, as a result of the Belfast agreement anybody born in Northern Ireland can declare themselves as Irish, British or both. He asks how many prisoners in the Northern Ireland system have a home address in the Republic of Ireland. That figure is 19. We will seek to deport people if it is ordered by the court or if the Secretary of State determines that it is in the public interest so to do. For other foreign national prisoners, of whom there are around 80 in the Northern Ireland system, we liaise closely with the Border and Immigration Agency, which takes the appropriate action when those prisoners are released.

Claire Curtis-Thomas: Employment remains a crucial feature of keeping young people out of prison. What has my hon. Friend done to ensure that young people in prisons have access to workplace training placements?

Paul Goggins: My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. The Prison Service of Northern Ireland is absolutely committed to ensuring that we improve educational opportunities and training, so that when prisoners move back into the community they are able to access jobs, have a home to live in and play a purposeful and positive role in the community, rather than return to offending.

Fine Defaulters

Tony Baldry: What percentage of prisoners in Northern Ireland are fine defaulters.

David Burrowes: What proportion of those serving a custodial sentence in Northern Ireland were convicted for defaulting on fine payments.

Paul Goggins: Although on average fine defaulters occupy up to 30 prison places at any one time, they represent 30 per cent. of all committals to prison. Ministers have made a commitment to deal with that overuse of custody by a range of alternative community-based penalties.

Tony Baldry: The Minister will be aware that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, in a report on the Northern Ireland Prison Service, said that the sending to prison of fine defaulters placed an unreasonable demand on the scarce resources of the service, and recommended that immediate steps be taken to ensure that short-sentenced fine defaulters did not abuse the system. What steps exactly are being taken to ensure that?

Paul Goggins: I warmly welcome the report from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, which put its finger on a number of important issues, including that one. It is quite a misuse of public resources that 2,000 prisoners each year are committed to prison in Northern Ireland because of fine default. They stay an average of four days, and usually their fine is of less than £600. In the new criminal justice measure that I shall shortly bring before the House, a new supervised activity order will put in place unpaid work instead of prison placement. Also, later this year, the fine default working group will produce further recommendations, which will include a proposal to introduce deduction from earnings and benefit, which of course should be in place well before custody is ever considered.

David Burrowes: Does not the presence of fine defaulters in the Maghaberry high-security prison illustrate the Government's failure to implement the recommendations regarding the treatment of those prisoners who require the lowest level of security management? When will the Government implement those recommendations, which will go some way to dealing with what the Secretary of State said in February was an "outrageous waste" of prison time and resources?

Paul Goggins: The hon. Gentleman suggests that that is an important issue that needs to be tackled, and to that extent I agree entirely. I have said that it is being tackled, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has set out a prospectus to do just that. We are beginning with the supervised activity orders that I have described, which will be followed by deductions from earnings and benefits. We are rebalancing the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland: those who pose the greatest risk of harm to fellow citizens will go to prison for longer than was the case in the past, while less serious offenders will be given robust, community-based punishments.

Alasdair McDonnell: Will the Minister give an estimate of the number of women in prison in Northern Ireland for defaulting on the television licence?

Paul Goggins: I cannot give a precise response to that question, but I shall write to my hon. Friend with the clear answer that he has asked for. However, it would be wrong to hold women or anyone else in prison for the non-payment of the television licence fee, or for any other minor matter. Such people should be dealt with robustly and their fines should be enforced, but they should not be detained in prison.

Peter Robinson: What does it say about the Government that they have found time to pass legislation granting amnesties for mass murderers in Northern Ireland, but not for legislation that would deal with fine defaulters and keep them out of prison? Will the Minister look at the legislation that was introduced in the old Stormont Parliament after the Social Democratic and Labour party held a rent and rates strike? The legislation meant that money could be docked from benefits as well as from earnings.

Paul Goggins: I am always grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's advice about things that were tried in the past, but I hope that he will agree that committing 2,000 people to prison each year in Northern Ireland for defaulting on fines is entirely wrong. In certain exceptional cases, it may be necessary to use prison as the last resort, but there needs to be a series of alternative, community-based punishments. I look forward to working with the right hon. Gentleman and others to make sure that the necessary reforms are made, so that fine defaulters are dealt with robustly but in the community.

Laurence Robertson: The House is aware of the problem with fine defaulters, some of whom are in prison for as little as 24 hours, but there is also a problem with the number of remand prisoners in Northern Ireland. They make up 37 per cent. of the prison population there, compared with 15 per cent. in England and Wales, and that proportion is rising. What does the Minister consider to be wrong with the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland, and what can he do about it?

Paul Goggins: As I have said already, we are reforming the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland to make sure that those who pose the greatest risk are dealt with most severely, while less serious offenders are dealt with in the community. The hon. Gentleman rightly states that about a third of people in the prison system in Northern Ireland are on remand. We must speed up the administration of the criminal justice process in Northern Ireland, but we are absolutely committed to doing so and have put in place targets to that end. Also, the criminal justice order that he and I will no doubt be debating soon contains a proposal to introduce electronic tagging to enforce curfews. Where appropriate, that will be another alternative to remanding people in custody, and it shows that we are taking action to rebalance the system to make it work more effectively.

Paramilitary Organisations

Andrew MacKay: What recent assessment he has made of the activities of paramilitary organisations.

Shaun Woodward: I am looking forward to receiving the next Independent Monitoring Commission report at the end of April. More work still needs to be undertaken by loyalist organisations, and dissident republicans continue to pose a limited but real threat.

Andrew MacKay: The Secretary of State must be concerned about the apparent increase in paramilitary beatings, especially in some of the most deprived districts across the Province. What action is he taking to ensure that the police get a grip of those areas, and that the paramilitaries do not pose as defenders of local communities?

Shaun Woodward: The police have got a good grip on dissident activity, and they do an extremely brave job. The right hon. Gentleman will know that at the end of last year two police officers were targeted by dissident republicans. I am pleased to report that they have made a good recovery. They do an extremely important and brave job, but the overall crime figures—and we should view that activity in the context of crime—reveal just how successful the PSNI is.

Eddie McGrady: Will the Secretary of State inform the House whether, over the past two years, he has had negotiations or discussions with the Ulster Volunteer Force, the Ulster Defence Association, dissident republicans and other such groups, for the purposes of obtaining ceasefires and decommissioning? If not, what has led to the change of Government policy and strategy?

Shaun Woodward: Again, the figures demonstrate the huge elements of progress that have been made. Whether we are talking about dissident republican activity or dissident loyalist activity, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, regrettably there are still elements out there who wish to behave in a criminal way. There is, of course, as the last IMC report indicated, more that needs to be done through action, and not just words, by dissident loyalist groups, but I look forward to receiving the next IMC report, which I am confident will show that further progress has been made.

Ian Paisley: Will the Secretary of State make a statement on the serious rioting in Londonderry at the weekend? When illegal parades on the Protestant side of the community take place, an attempt by the police to stop those involved from gathering is usually successful, but it seems that in the incident in question people could gather. In fact, for the first time in a very long time, 40 petrol bombs were recovered by the police, and there was a savage attack on the police in Londonderry. Would the Secretary of State not think it better, at this time, to concentrate on helping the police, rather than to enter into an engagement on whether power should be devolved to Stormont? Any organisation that has an army council associated with violence should not have anything to do with the police.

Shaun Woodward: I think that this is the first chance that I have had since the right hon. Gentleman announced that he will stand down as First Minister in May to put on record in the House what a huge debt the House owes him for the work that he has done, both in leading his party and as First Minister.
	On the events that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned in Londonderry, I think that no sensibly minded person would do anything, in any shape or form, other than condemn the behaviour on the streets over the weekend. Petrol bombs and attacks on the police are a thing of the past and should be utterly condemned. I remind all hon. Members that this weekend Sinn Fein were as strong as any in condemning the activity that took place. He is right to talk about the importance of devolution of policing and criminal justice, and to point out the attention that the Government continue to pay to the issue. I just say to him that, while I condemn without reservation the behaviour of those criminals on the streets in Londonderry this weekend, I make no apology for continuing to encourage momentum on devolution, because that is the best way for us to secure long-term peace on the streets of every part of Northern Ireland.

Criminal Justice and Policing

Anne McIntosh: If he will make a statement on the progress of devolution of criminal justice and policing to Northern Ireland.

Shaun Woodward: Since May last year, huge progress has been made in Northern Ireland, not least with the publication of the Assembly's progress report, which I laid before Parliament yesterday. Perhaps there is no better indication of the progress made in Northern Ireland than the visit last week by Her Majesty the Queen, who was able for the first time to attend a maundy service there—and, even more significantly, a maundy service in Armagh.

Anne McIntosh: The St. Andrews agreement is due to come into effect in May, and criminal justice and policing in particular go to the heart of that agreement. We have just heard that there may well be reasons why that deadline is not met. Will the Secretary of State meet that deadline, and if not, what does he expect will happen?

Shaun Woodward: The St. Andrews agreement began in May last year with the first stage of devolution, and I am pleased to report just how successful in all the areas where devolution has taken place the power-sharing Government have been. There remains the second stage of devolution, which in the agreement was envisaged to take place this year, hopefully in May. However, the hon. Lady rightly asks whether we will be able to complete it. The Government will have completed their promises and their arrangements, so that when the Assembly and the Executive have cross-community support and ask for devolution to take place, the Government will be able to fulfil their promises and objectives.

David Simpson: The Secretary of State will be aware of the comments made by Mary McAleese, the President of the Republic of Ireland, when she said that Her Majesty the Queen could be invited to the Irish Republic only when policing and justice powers were devolved. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that that statement was scandalous and shameful?

Shaun Woodward: I understand the emotions that are inevitably raised on the issue, and I understand the comments made by the hon. Gentleman, but the comments made by President McAleese last week must be seen in the context of a reply to a question from a journalist. They were heartfelt and they followed what had been said by the Taoiseach. Let us be clear. A visit by the Queen to the Republic will be agreed between the Palace and the Irish Government, and it will be a matter decided upon by the Queen at a time of her choosing.

Owen Paterson: The key to devolution of policing and justice is to build cross-community confidence. What discussions has the Minister had with senior members of the republican movement to ensure that the IRA army council is disbanded?

Shaun Woodward: The hon. Gentleman is right to talk about cross-community support. As he knows, recent polls in Northern Ireland have consistently shown that a majority of people not only support the devolution of policing and justice powers, but that they support that sooner rather than later, and that a majority would like it to be in May this year. On the specific question about discussions with republicans about the future of paramilitary structures, let me be equally clear. All the paramilitary structures, the army council included, are vestiges of the past. It would be better if they were gone this afternoon, and the sooner any leaders in any party can bear down on getting rid of the vestiges of Northern Ireland's paramilitary past, the better.

Owen Paterson: Actions speak louder than words. What steps is the Minister taking to encourage full republican co-operation, which is essential to solving the McCartney and Quinn murders and would go a long way to encouraging Unionists to support devolution?

Shaun Woodward: The hon. Gentleman is right; actions do speak better than words, which is why we are seeing an unprecedented level of co-operation between the community and PSNI precisely in areas where, for example, the terrible Quinn murder happened, as the hon. Gentleman is aware from his own discussions with the Chief Constable. Further to that, let me say once again to the hon. Gentleman that none of those structures, the army council included, has any place in tomorrow's or even today's Northern Ireland, and I welcome his support in joining me to apply pressure wherever it can be applied to ensure that those paramilitary structures belong in the dustbin of history.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: Surely the greatest leverage that the Government can apply on the republican movement is to insist that the army council is removed before there is devolution of policing and justice. That is the one lever that the Government have, and instead of putting it up to the political parties in Northern Ireland, is it not time that the Government used their position and influence to press for that and insist on it before there is any question of further devolution?

Shaun Woodward: Let me put on record again my thanks to the right hon. Gentleman for the work that he has done with his Assembly and Executive Review Committee over the past six months to prepare the political parties of Northern Ireland for devolution. It is perfectly clear that he shares with all other hon. Members the view that there is no place in the future for any vestiges of paramilitary activity. He knows as well as I do that it is intention that matters. For that reason, I urge him to be careful about setting pre-conditions and to remain focused on intent and on building cross-community confidence. I remind him of what he said about policing and criminal justice only last week:
	"I think that indicates that the political parties are almost at the point where they can take on this responsibility".

Provisional Army Council

Andrew Robathan: What assessment he has made of the likelihood of the Provisional army council disbanding.

Shaun Woodward: I am sure that everybody looks forward to the day when all vestiges of Northern Ireland's paramilitary history, including the army council, have been relegated to where they belong: the past.

Andrew Robathan: The Provisional army council is not some branch of the Royal British Legion, but a terror command structure. Given that the Government's policies have put terrorists and murderers into government in part of the United Kingdom, and given that the self-same people were and may still be members of that terror command structure, how can the Secretary of State even contemplate having them in charge of policing the criminal justice system?

Shaun Woodward: I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, but he will know that the Belfast agreement, subsequently built on by the St. Andrews agreement, enables the politicians and people of Northern Ireland to determine their future. As such, we built into the St. Andrews agreement that it would be for the parties to agree on the matter, that it would be an issue of cross-community confidence, and that when a motion was brought before and agreed by the Assembly, it would finally have to come before this House before we could move forward on devolution.
	As for the idea of terrorists being put into positions of power, I simply say this to the hon. Gentleman: all those members of the Executive have taken an oath of office, and they are required, both now and in future, to live up to that oath.

PRIME MINISTER

The Prime Minister was asked—

Engagements

Gwyn Prosser: If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 26 March.

Gordon Brown: This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today.

Gwyn Prosser: No one knows better than my constituents the huge effects that cross-channel co-operation and our new border controls have had on clamping down on illegal immigration, but there is more work to be done. What will my right hon. Friend be discussing tomorrow with our new friend, President Sarkozy, to continue the work of improving and reforming our immigration schemes, to strengthen our economies and to get a grip on the militants at Calais— [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Gordon Brown: Let me first of all thank my hon. Friend for his question, and welcome President Sarkozy and his wife to Britain. I believe that our talks in the next few days will be very constructive. My hon. Friend is absolutely right about illegal immigration and I hope that in our talks today and tomorrow, the President and I can agree to tighten up controls at Calais. I hope also that we can have an agreement that there will be no further immigration centres like Sangatte, and that they will not exist in the future. Given the present global financial turbulence and the fact that in one country in the last day interest rates have moved to 15 per cent., I also believe that it is right that France and Britain agree measures, which we can put to the international institutions over the next few days, that will strengthen the stability of our economies, deal with problems of lack of transparency in financial information and make sure that the European economies can continue to grow together. That is possible only because we want a Britain at the heart of Europe and not detached from Europe.

David Cameron: I join the Prime Minister in welcoming President and Mrs. Sarkozy to Britain.
	It is now nearly eight months since the start of the credit crunch, and one of the key questions is how well prepared we are. Does the Prime Minister now accept that in terms of financial regulation, the UK has been shown to have some serious failings?

Gordon Brown: We have already looked at some of the changes that can be made, both in the Financial Services Authority—there is a report of the Treasury Committee today—and in the Bank of England. But if I may say so, if the right hon. Gentleman now looks around the world and sees what happened to Bear Stearns, sees that three banks have fallen in Germany and sees what happened to Société Générale in France, he will realise that we have been better protected than other countries against the global financial turbulence, and that that is precisely because we did not take the Opposition advice that would have caused instability.

David Cameron: People around the world are making a contrast between Bear Stearns, where a rescue was organised in just a few days, and Northern Rock, where there were months of dithering. I know that the Prime Minister created the regulatory system, but he needs to be frank about its failings. Today's FSA report is a remarkable report, which says:
	"The supervision of Northern Rock revealed the most significant combination of shortcomings",
	yet not a word about that from the Prime Minister. The director general of the CBI says that this was the first new test of the tripartite system, and it failed to deliver the goods. So that we are better prepared in future, does the Prime Minister agree that the Bank of England, not the Financial Services Authority, should be in charge of rescuing banks that fail?

Gordon Brown: First of all, until a few weeks ago the right hon. Gentleman supported what we did on Northern Rock, so it makes no sense for him to criticise now. Secondly, as far as the Financial Services Authority is concerned, it is true that it has been regulating for solvency, and it has done a good job. The problem arose in terms of liquidity, and that is where further efforts have got to be made. That is true, as the President of America's report is saying, for the American financial system, and it is true of the French and the German financial systems as well. All countries are realising that more has to be done to protect against illiquidity, and they also know that there has to be greater transparency in the financial system. I repeat: the lessons that are being learned are being learned around the world.
	The Conservative party published a document in the past two days saying that far from Britain doing badly, real living standards in Britain among pensioners had risen by £1,500 since 2001; for single women pensioners, by £1,000; and for couples, by £700. That is on page 16 of the Conservatives' own document.

David Cameron: I tell you what that document said: it said that since this man became Prime Minister, the price of milk is up 17 per cent., the price of eggs is up 28 per cent. and the price of bread is up 34 per cent. That is the real cost of living under Labour.
	In his answer, the Prime Minister said an extraordinary thing—that the Financial Services Authority has done a good job. What he has not read is the report out today by the Financial Services Authority that says:
	"The Financial Services Authority is short of expertise in some fundamental areas, notably prudential banking experience and financial data analysis."
	Are not those the absolutely key things that are needed to be a regulator? Is not that why the Bank of England should be in charge of these rescues rather than the Financial Services Authority? The Chancellor— [ Interruption. ] They do not like to hear the extent of the failure of the system put in place by the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister and the Chancellor have made several U-turns recently; why do they not make one more U-turn and make the Bank of England responsible?

Gordon Brown: I know what the chairman of the right hon. Gentleman's defence commission, Frederick Forsyth, meant when he said that David Cameron has a
	"sketchy grasp of basic arithmetic",
	because he does not understand what is happening. The FSA has admitted that it must do more about liquidity problems, but every financial organisation around the world that is regulating markets is accepting the need to do more. He would be better addressing the real problems that we face—off balance sheet activities, write-offs that have not been properly declared, and credit rating agencies that have done the job of being advisers as well as raters. Those are the problems that have got to be addressed. Instead of just blaming the Financial Services Authority, he should look at the real problems that President Sarkozy and I will address. The real problems will not be solved by someone who has no basic grasp of arithmetic.  [ Interruption. ]

Mr. Speaker: Order. The Leader of the Opposition.

David Cameron: It is time that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor— [ Interruption. ]

Mr. Speaker: Order. The Leader of the Opposition.

David Cameron: It is time that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor realised that one of the real problems facing Britain is their economic mismanagement. It is frankly pathetic to listen to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom read out quotes from a novelist when he ought to be reading out from the Financial Services Authority's report. A key point in terms of how well prepared we are is the size of the Government's budget deficit. Out of 55 major world economies, only three economies have a bigger budget deficit than Britain. That is why he is putting up taxes. Most other countries are helping families with the cost of living; this Government are hitting them. Can he name one other major country that has just introduced a Budget putting up taxes? Name one.

Gordon Brown: We are injecting more money into the economy this year. We are not taking money out of the economy; we are cutting the basic rate of income tax to 20p. Let us compare what was happening during the last world downturn: 15 per cent. interest rates, 10 per cent. inflation, 3 million people unemployed, public spending being cut, and taxes rising dramatically with VAT on fuel. Let us compare that with what is happening now: we have low inflation, low interest rates, the highest levels of employment in our history, unemployment at its lowest since 1975 and public services continuing to expand. If the right hon. Gentleman does not accept that today, he should remember that he said on Monday on BBC Radio London:
	"Interest rates still look low historically".
	We have kept interest rates low.

David Cameron: Not only has the Prime Minister not read the report from the Financial Services Authority, it is pretty clear that he has not read his own Budget. Pages 111 and 112 of the Red Book show taxes going up in the Budget. Everybody knows that taxes have just gone up. Every time you fill up the car, taxes have gone up; every time you buy a car, taxes have gone up; every time the family goes shopping, and so on. No wonder every pub in Britain is trying to ban the Chancellor from having a pint. The Prime Minister has not answered a single question so let us just try this once again. Can he name one other major country that is responding to the downturn by putting up taxes? Name one.

Gordon Brown: We are injecting more money into the economy—the right hon. Gentleman simply does not understand basic arithmetic. The basic rate of income tax is going down to 20p. Let us look at our record. Inflation in Britain is 2.5 per cent, in America it is 4 per cent. and in the euro area it is over 3 per cent. So which country has the lowest rate of inflation of the major countries? It is Britain. We have kept interest rates low, and whereas unemployment is 8 per cent. in Germany, 8 per cent. in France and rising in America, it is at its lowest in Britain since 1975, at half the rate of our European partners. That is a Government who are better prepared for a world downturn. The problem is that the Conservatives want £10 billion of tax cuts, they want to say that they will raise public expenditure, they want to say that borrowing should fall and they say that they want tax cuts at the moment to boost the economy. That is the same recipe that they followed in 1992, and it led to the worst recession since the war. And who was the economic adviser to the Treasury at the time? None other than the Leader of the Opposition.

David Cameron: The Prime Minister has not answered the question. He cannot name one other major country that is putting up taxes in a downturn. He asked for some basic arithmetic; I will give him some. One Prime Minister plus one Chancellor equals economic incompetence. Every other Government have put aside money in the good years to build up their surpluses. Instead, this Government, at the end of a period of worldwide economic growth, have achieved a unique double: the highest tax burden in our history and the biggest budget deficit in western Europe. Does he feel any responsibility for any of this, or is he totally incapable of admitting his mistakes?

Gordon Brown: The highest tax burden in our country happened under a Conservative Government in the 1980s. The rising deficit in the world is a rising deficit in America, which will be higher than ours. I just wish the right hon. Gentleman had known something about economics when he came to this House and started to tell us what to do. The truth is that we have cut corporation tax from 30p to 28p, and we will cut income tax from the beginning of April from 22p to 20p. All he can give us is slogans and not substance; the Conservatives have learned nothing from their experience of the 1990s.

Alan Simpson: Are the Government on course to deliver the Prime Minister's commitment to take all vulnerable households out of fuel poverty by 2010?

Gordon Brown: In the Budget, we put in more money to help low-income households deal with their fuel bills. We have done more to deal with the problems of homelessness and fuel poverty in the last 10 years than the Conservatives ever did in 18 years. In the Budget, we raised the winter fuel allowance, we raised the amount of money available for insulation and we will continue to do more to meet our social housing targets.

Nicholas Clegg: Home repossession orders now stand at 100,000—the same as in 1990—and house prices are falling faster than they were even then. Does the Prime Minister still deny that the crisis facing British home owners today looks at least as bad as the Tory recession of the early 1990s?

Gordon Brown: I do not know when the Liberal party will ever learn. Interest rates were 18 per cent. at one point in the early 1990s; they are 5.25 per cent. today. The number of repossessions in the last year was 27,000; in the first two years of the 1990s, it was 200,000. We are dealing with a quite different situation and the reason is that we did not take the advice of the Liberal party, but pursued policies for economic stability.

Nicholas Clegg: Is complacency the only thing that the right hon. Gentleman has to offer the thousands of British families who are frightened of losing their homes? Will he now instruct the Bank of England to take house prices into account when setting interest rates, to stop the boom and bust in the housing market? Will he also stop banks from repossessing homes at will and force them to explore all other options to keep British families in their homes?

Gordon Brown: But the way to deal with the economic problems is to keep inflation low and to keep interest rates low, and that is exactly what we have done. Inflation is lower than in the rest of Europe and lower than in America. That is why interest rates have managed to come down twice in the past few months, whereas that has not been possible in the euro area. I tell the right hon. Gentleman this: we take seriously our responsibility to home owners in this country. That is why there are 1.5 million more home owners now than there were in 1997, why interest rates are on average half what they were in the Conservative years and why mortgage rates are lower than they were on average in those 18 years. We will continue to ensure that inflation and interest rates are low, to the benefit of home owners. One way we will do that is by not taking the advice of the Liberal party.

David Chaytor: After cancer and heart disease, the fear of falling victim to stroke is one of the greatest anxieties felt by elderly people. In Greater Manchester, the decision will be taken shortly to establish three new specialist stroke centres. The Prime Minister will know of the outstanding work done by the stroke service at Fairfield hospital in my constituency. Does he agree that Fairfield will be an ideal location for one of the new specialist stroke centres?

Gordon Brown: I know that my hon. Friend will push the case hard for Fairfield general hospital, which I understand does a very good job. There is a Manchester-wide integrated stroke service strategy to be published. We have already put in £105 million of Government funding to support the general stroke strategy. Up to 6,000 deaths could be avoided as a result, and 15,000 strokes could be averted through preventive work. That is why we will take seriously not only what my hon. Friend says about his hospital, but the need to improve stroke services throughout the country. That is possible only because we are increasing the money available to the national health service.

Ian Paisley: Would the Prime Minister give to the people of Northern Ireland the assurance today that the Government will not countenance supporting any attempt to use the embryo Bill to legalise abortion in Northern Ireland through back-door legislation, keeping in mind that all parties in Northern Ireland are opposed to this? Surely that decision should be made by Stormont, and Stormont alone.

Gordon Brown: First, this is the first time that the right hon. Gentleman has been in the House since he announced that he was giving up his job as First Minister, and I want to thank him for everything that he has done as First Minister. The whole House—indeed, the whole of the United Kingdom—owes him a huge debt of gratitude for the way he has brought together the parties in Northern Ireland and been a very successful First Minister over the past few months.
	The matter of an amendment on abortion to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill is a matter for this House. I do not believe that the House will wish to change its mind on these issues, but that is a matter of a free vote of the House of Commons.

Alan Whitehead: Does the Prime Minister think that energy companies should do more to help vulnerable groups deal with the cost of their fuel? Does he think that they should all introduce standard social tariffs to assist such people, and if they do not, is he prepared to legislate?

Gordon Brown: This is exactly the area where we are working with the energy companies at the moment. We are talking to them, and we have said that they need to deliver a package of social assistance to vulnerable households that will increase their spending from £56 million a year to £150 million a year. We want the energy companies that have benefited from the windfall as a result of the European licence trading in relation to climate change to put an extra £100 million a year into helping the very households that my hon. Friend is talking about. That is on top of the winter allowance, which we have just increased, and on top of the help with insulation that we are giving. I understand how difficult it is for people at the moment. Oil, gas and coal prices have risen by between 60 and 80 per cent. around the world. That is why, with the winter allowance and the extra £100 million that the energy companies will be expected to put in, we will do our best by those people who face, or are threatened by, fuel poverty in this country.

Paul Beresford: I have an interest to declare on this question. If the media were to be believed a few months ago, the ravages of dental decay were becoming widespread. The Prime Minister will be aware that fluoridation is generally considered to be the best way to prevent that disease. The Water Act 2003 promised to bring in fluoridation, but not a single water supply has been fluoridated since then. Will the Prime Minister confirm that he agrees with the need for fluoridation, and will he meet a small delegation to discuss the changes needed to implement it?

Gordon Brown: I am personally very sympathetic to what the hon. Gentleman says. I have seen the benefits of fluoridation myself. One reason for us putting extra money from the health budget into fluoridation is to encourage that to happen around the country. I would be very happy to meet a delegation, as the hon. Gentleman suggests. Also, the Health Secretary has just told me that £14 million of extra money is being put in to help with this, and that is one way in which we can encourage local authorities and others to take up fluoridation. It is a good thing for the teeth of the people of this country.

Denis MacShane: Did the Prime Minister hear the very warm words—almost a love letter—that President Sarkozy sent to Britain via the "Today" programme this morning? When he meets the President, can we reciprocate? Does he agree that the default setting for our political class, for Whitehall and, above all, for the media is often to express contempt and derision for France? Can we not try to turn the entente cordiale of the last century into an entente amicale, or even an entente fraternelle, for this century?

Gordon Brown: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. President Sarkozy and his French Government and our Government have a great deal in common and a shared agenda for the future. We will be discussing co-operation on matters relating to energy and security. We will also be discussing how we can work together on the environment and the economy. I believe that, coming out of these talks, we will find a shared agreement to move things further. I believe in the international institutions when it comes to the reform of the economy, and we will now vote together on crucial areas in which we must reform the international economy. My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that the entente cordiale is moving into a new era, and I hope that Members on both sides of the House will welcome that, but it does require Britain to be at the centre of Europe and not isolated from it.

Castle Point

Bob Spink: If he will visit Castle Point to review its infrastructure.

Gordon Brown: I have no current plans to do so.

Bob Spink: Such a shame. Canvey Island will soon have 50,000 residents, and we need a new access road from a different point on the island for environmental and regeneration reasons, and particularly for safety reasons, in case we ever needed to evacuate the island again. The Prime Minister will remember that 58 people lost their lives on Canvey Island in the last great flood because they could not be evacuated. Will he join me in pressing Essex county council, which is Conservative controlled, to make that its top priority? If it does, we will get the access road that we need. If it does not, the people will know who to blame.

Gordon Brown: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, because it allows me to point out that we have increased spending on roads by 80 per cent. in real terms since we came to power, and that that spending will have more than doubled in real terms in the years up to the next decade. However, it is the responsibility of Essex county council to bring forward a scheme that provides value for money and meets environmental objectives. I know that Essex county council is neither of the hon. Gentleman's party nor of ours, but I hope that it will listen to his representations.

Engagements

Robert Flello: Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity over the next few days to talk to President Sarkozy about working closely and helpfully with the Chinese Government in order to find a peaceful and lasting solution to the Tibet question? Will he do that?

Gordon Brown: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, as this issue concerns not just France and Britain, but the whole world. As I said last week, I have talked to Premier Wen about it. My hon. Friend may know that a human rights dialogue took place with the Chinese Government at the beginning of the year, and officials from Britain visited Tibet and reported on it. We are determined to draw to the Chinese Government's attention changes that need to be made. We urge restraint where there has been violence and we urge reconciliation where there is a lack of dialogue. I repeat that the authorities in China and the Dalai Lama should, subject to the conditions laid down, get into talks. We are determined to help and facilitate a process of dialogue and reconciliation.

Gerald Howarth: Given reports that embassy staff in Washington have been forbidden from using the expression "the special relationship", will the Prime Minister—for the benefit of the people of this country and perhaps of President Sarkozy—define his understanding of the meaning of "the special relationship" between the United Kingdom and our closest ally, the United States?

Gordon Brown: As the right hon. Gentleman says, it is our closest ally and our single most important partner, so I use the term "special relationship" with pride.

Betty Williams: As my right hon. Friend knows, the Foreign Secretary launched the Government's annual human rights report at the Foreign Office last night. Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating the many volunteer organisations that contribute so much to fostering human rights across the world—including my fellow members of Soroptimists International in north Wales, who, through their project Sierra, aim to transform the lives of orphan children following the war in Sierra Leone?

Gordon Brown: I believe that the House should congratulate the Soroptimists and all those who work for human rights in every part of the world, particularly those who work for the achievement of the Geneva convention, but who do so under dangerous and risky conditions that can sometimes threaten their lives. The human rights report published by the Foreign Secretary yesterday draws attention to areas in the world where human rights abuses have to be addressed. One important area that will be in the eye of the world this weekend is Zimbabwe. It is important that we draw attention to the abuses there and call for a restoration—a full restoration—of democracy in that country.

Paul Rowen: Does the Prime Minister think it right that the west coast main line should have to wait until 2012 for new carriages? Will he intervene in the dispute between the Department for Transport and Virgin Trains in order to secure a resolution to the problem?

Gordon Brown: I just have to tell the hon. Gentleman that we have spent £7 billion modernising the west coast main line and that no Government could have done more to make it possible for more people to travel on that particular line and on railways more generally. Indeed, the number of passengers using the railways is now more than 1 billion for the first time since the second world war.

Anne Begg: What would my right hon. Friend say about a local authority that has slashed services to disabled people in such a cavalier fashion that they are threatening to take the council to court for its failure to comply with its equality duties under the Disability Discrimination Act 2005?

Gordon Brown: It used to be the Conservative councils that were the only ones making huge cuts, but it is now Scottish National party and Liberal Democrat councils, which explains what has happened in Aberdeen. I think that people will be particularly sad to hear that members of the disabled community in Aberdeen are the biggest victims of the cuts being brought in by that administration. I hope that public opinion will express itself and say that disabled people should not suffer in that way.

Bernard Jenkin: In the spirit of the entente amicale as well as that of our special relationship with our American allies, may I draw the Prime Minister's attention to the state of relations between the EU and NATO, which the Defence Committee has urged should be a priority matter for next week's NATO summit? May I urge him to address what the American ambassador to NATO has called the senseless and frozen conflict between the two institutions and to secure the agreement of President Sarkozy, whom we welcome in London today, to resolve the problem so that neither the EU undermines NATO, nor NATO the EU?

Gordon Brown: I believe that both NATO and the European Union have important jobs to do. In my discussions with President Sarkozy, I believe that we will see him being amenable to changes in NATO that will bring its European members closer to the heart of NATO in the near future. I also believe that a relationship between the EU and NATO in which the EU does more of the civilian reconstruction work, matching the military work of NATO, as is happening in Kosovo, is one of the ways in which we can cement a better relationship between the two organisations. We are proud to be a member of both NATO and the European Union.

Helen Southworth: As science is so important to the north-west and to the UK economy, will my right hon. Friend ensure that the science research council retains key scientific skills at Daresbury laboratory so that we can continue to produce world-leading science there?

Gordon Brown: I can tell my hon. Friend, who has fought hard for all the investments made at Daresbury science park, that the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills is committed to creating a science and innovation campus at Daresbury. That was announced in the Budget of 2006 and confirmed in December 2007. The next step is that Sir Tom McKillop, the chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland, has been asked to include Daresbury in his north-west review. We are committed to additional investment in science and technology in my hon. Friend's region, and to all the jobs that flow from that, making it possible for the north-west to continue to increase employment during a difficult period for the world economy.

Nigel Dodds: In his article in  The Daily Telegraph yesterday, on why we must stand up for the Union, with which I heartily agree, the Prime Minister mentioned Scotland, Wales and England. Will he now tell the House what his predecessor once said: that he values the Union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

Gordon Brown: Not only do I value the Union but I will work to make that Union strong. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the Daily Telegraph website, he will see that Northern Ireland was included in that article, not excluded.

Points of Order

David Winnick: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would it be possible to know whether the appeal by the House of Commons Commission to the Appeal Court is limited to the question of addresses, or extends to the wider question of second homes? If it is the former, that would be perfectly understandable on grounds of security. If, however, the appeal against the information tribunal is on the wider question of expenditure on what are described as second homes, it should be noted that some Members, certainly myself, are very much opposed to the appeal being lodged. In my view, it is unfortunate that no way of voting—

Mr. Speaker: Order. This matter is before the court, and while I know that the media can talk about it, the rules are clear that it is sub judice for the House of Commons, and I cannot discuss it. In relation to many of the questions that the hon. Gentleman raises, there is nothing to stop him going to the court and finding out the grounds for the appeal.

BILL PRESENTED

microgeneration (definition) amendment

Mr. David Drew presented a Bill to amend the definition of "microgeneration" in certain Acts: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 25 April, and to be printed [Bill 155].

Orders of the Day

Local Transport Bill [ Lords]

[Relevant documents: The Ninth Report from the Tr ansport Committee, Session 2006- 07, on the draft Local Transport Bill and the Transport Innovation Fund, HC 692, and the Government's Response, HC 1053.]
	 Order for Second Reading read.

Mr. Speaker: I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers).

Rosie Winterton: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
	May I give the apologies of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, who is unwell today?
	Reliable, high-quality public transport makes a real difference to people in their everyday lives. We depend on it to get to work, to the shops, to essential services such as schools and hospitals, and to visit friends and family. It can help to promote social inclusion, particularly as the most vulnerable in our society often depend on public transport to the greatest extent. Good public transport also helps to tackle congestion, contributing to improved economic performance and the fight against climate change.
	The bus has always been the workhorse of the transport system. Back in the 1950s, up to 13 billion journeys across the country were made by bus each year. Sadly, for the rest of the last century, the number of people using buses fell year on year. The previous Tory Government's solution in the mid-1980s was to deregulate the bus market outside London. Too often, that led to services being cut back, and in some places aggressive competition in the form of bus wars gave the industry a bad name. That is why bus patronage fell from 5.8 billion journeys a year across the country in the mid-1980s to below 4.4 billion by the late 1990s.

Andrew Turner: We on the island are hopeful that the Office of Fair Trading will be persuaded to look into market failure regarding ferries. However, provision of free public transport for elderly people is outside its remit. Elderly people can travel by bus, free of charge, when visiting relatives in other parts of the mainland. Why are my elderly constituents penalised by being forced to pay for a ferry if they want to visit a relative outside their constituency? I hope that that is something that the Minister can look into.

Rosie Winterton: I am not sure why the hon. Gentleman is bringing the OFT into this. I think he is referring to the national concessionary fares scheme, which we debated in the House last night and the Labour Government introduced. He is right: something like 11 million people over 60 and disabled people will benefit from it this year, but it is true that that is confined to buses. It is open to local authorities to extend the scheme if they wish to do so. He may like to approach his local authority to see whether it wishes to extend the scheme to the ferry service, which it is at liberty to do with the discretionary powers available to it.

Angela Smith: Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire on not just giving free bus travel to all people over 60, but giving free train and tram travel too across the boundaries of both metropolitan districts?

Rosie Winterton: My hon. Friend is right to highlight South Yorkshire as an exemplar of good public transport provision. I am glad to say that it has continued—like, I have to say, some Conservative and Liberal Democrat councils—the concessionary fare schemes that were previously available. It obviously shows that Labour councils value older and disabled people and want to give them those extra services on top of the national concessionary fares scheme, in which the Government are investing something like £212 million this year.

Claire Curtis-Thomas: My right hon. Friend will know that Merseytravel is now the most successful rail operator in the country, offering on-time delivery more often than any other provider. However, that has been brought about only by the significant investment that this Government have placed in public transport on Merseyside, an area with the least car ownership and where people are absolutely reliant on public transport—£13 million was spent in 1997; it is now well over £60 million. Merseytravel delivers the sort of services that people, quite frankly, have a right to.

Rosie Winterton: My hon. Friend is right to point in particular to some of the integrated transport schemes that have been developed by some of our successful passenger transport executives. The idea of the Bill is to enable them to go even further in improving public transport, in contrast, as I said, to the Conservatives, who during their time in power deregulated the bus services, causing enormous problems for all our constituents.

Norman Baker: rose—

Roberta Blackman-Woods: rose—

Rosie Winterton: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman first and come back to my hon. Friend.

Norman Baker: As the Minister knows, the Liberal Democrats will probably support the Bill, but may I take up the point that she made earlier about concessionary bus fares? I do not wish to revisit last night's debate, but it is simply not true that local authorities do not care about the extra discretionary services. All local authorities of all parties want to provide such services, but there is a genuine issue over funding. Will the Minister give me the assurance that she would not give me last night? Will she undertake to conduct a review after, say, a year to establish whether or not the formula that the Government have applied is fair to local authorities? She needs to do that.

Rosie Winterton: Clearly we are revisiting last night's debate. As I have said, about £1 billion will be invested in concessionary fares this year, including an extra £212 million. We believe that that is a generous settlement, and that there is no need for local authorities to cut the services that they provide for elderly and disabled people.

Several hon. Members: rose —

Rosie Winterton: I must give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Dr. Blackman-Woods).

Roberta Blackman-Woods: Will the Minister confirm that the Bill will allow local authorities such as Durham county council to draw up plans to improve public transport, particularly bus services, and to create better integration between commercial bus operations and, for instance, community transport initiatives so that they can start to deliver for their populations in a way that was not possible before because of the last Government's lack of investment?

Rosie Winterton: My hon. Friend has highlighted three points: the way in which the Bill will improve bus services, the integration of transport services that it will allow, and the fact that it will allow better planning so that our constituents can benefit from the improved public transport that we all want.

Elfyn Llwyd: rose—

David Chaytor: rose—

Mark Hendrick: rose—

Rosie Winterton: I know that what I am about to say will interest my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Hendrick), and I will give way to him in a second.
	Under the deregulation introduced by the last Government, competition became very aggressive. That led to bus wars in some parts of the country, and gave the industry a bad name. We saw a fall in bus patronage across the country under the stewardship of the last Government, and the Bill is intended to put that right. In stark contrast to what the last Government did, this Government have been reversing the legacy of underinvestment that we inherited in 1997, and have made it a priority to get people back on to buses.

Mark Hendrick: I thank my right hon. Friend for visiting Preston recently to observe and discuss its Civitas programme. She will be well aware of the current bus wars between the Stagecoach bus company and Preston Bus. How will the Bill facilitate improvement in services, given the problems that deregulation has caused in places such as Preston?

Rosie Winterton: There are instances in which it has not been in the public interest to provide services that do not meet our constituents' needs. I will not comment specifically on my hon. Friend's area because I know that the traffic commissioner is undertaking an inquiry, but I am aware that he has followed developments closely and has been very concerned about the effect on his constituents. However, there are a number of ways in which the Bill allows local authorities to plan services more effectively and introduce better quality partnerships and, if necessary, quality contracts. I will say more about that shortly.
	We shall be able to reassure our constituents that their real needs will be considered. It will be possible to sit down with bus operators in a spirit of co-operation, and discuss how it can best be ensured that services meet the needs of local people. The Bill provides a range of ways in which that can be achieved.

Theresa Villiers: If the Minister is so strongly opposed to the deregulated system that the Government inherited from their predecessor, why is it that in 10 years all they have done is introduce two schemes, quality contracts and quality partnerships, that have been used by no local authority except one that has used a quality partnership? Clearly the Government's concern about the present system has not motivated them to do anything to amend it.

Rosie Winterton: That is an interesting comment, because I understand from it that the hon. Lady believes that the introduction of quality partnerships and contracts should be encouraged, so I am surprised that her reasoned amendment says her party will vote against the Bill because of the introduction of quality contracts.
	I would be the first to say that we need to go further than the powers available in the Transport Act 2000. It has been recognised that the threshold was set too high, which is why we are changing the legislation, improving on the 2000 Act to make co-operation easier. I am astonished that the hon. Lady and her party do not recognise their constituents' concerns, and wish to vote against the Bill because of the introduction of quality contracts.

David Chaytor: The concessionary fares scheme for elderly people has been enormously successful and popular. Does the Minister agree that exactly the same arguments that supported the case for a national concessionary fares scheme for the over-60s also support the case for such a scheme for the under-18s? Will she keep her mind, and the collective mind of her officials, open to the possibility that when considering the next transport Act we should look seriously at introducing a national, standardised, basic minimum concessionary fares scheme for under-18s?

Rosie Winterton: My hon. Friend reinforces the point that without a Labour Government there would not have been a national concessionary fares scheme at all; in particular, it would not have been possible without the extra investment that the Labour Government have put in. Of course, any extension of schemes requires extra investment. We are doing lots of things to encourage younger people to use public transport—and we also encourage other initiatives, such as cycling schemes to make sure that they get the benefits of exercise.
	I take on board my hon. Friend's point, but we must consider it in the context of the investment we are already putting into the bus industry. About £2.5 billion each year goes into bus services, up from just £1 billion a decade ago. It was this Government who introduced the rural bus subsidy grant, and since we came into office we have nearly doubled it to £55 million a year. That means that over the 10-year period we have spent about £450 million a year subsidising rural bus services.
	As we debated in the House last night, the investment we are putting in through the national concessionary fares scheme gives about 11 million older and disabled people the freedom to travel free on any off-peak local bus in any part of England. That scheme has boosted the number of people using buses, and has brought people greater freedom and independence. As a result of all the changes and investment I have outlined, almost 500 million extra journeys are being made each year on local buses since 1998.

Henry Bellingham: The Minister mentions rural areas, but what is her view of the EU driving times and rest periods directive of last April which bans drivers from covering more than 31 miles at any point in a single trip unless they have had a 45-hour period off in the same week? That is causing mayhem in counties such as Norfolk. A firm called Norfolk Green has contacted me about it, saying that it will have to cut a number of rural services. Is this not another example of crazy Euro-interference in our own business?

Rosie Winterton: The hon. Gentleman would do well to remember that that measure was brought in on safety grounds. We should not underestimate the importance of that. However, I understand that the matter is being examined by the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency, and that the bus operators will shortly be meeting to discuss how the directive can be successfully implemented. It is important to remember that it was to do with safety issues about which we should all be concerned.
	As I said, the 2000 Act created new opportunities for local authorities to work with bus operators towards real improvements for the benefit of passengers. It included measures to support voluntary partnership arrangements between local authorities and bus operators, and gave powers to local authorities to implement quality partnership and quality contracts schemes.

Clive Efford: The Government have been getting it in the neck from both local government and the private sector, which may suggest to some that perhaps they are on the right track. Does the Minister agree that the Bill's success will be tested in how the bus companies and local authorities come together to solve the problems that exist in providing services to communities that are not well served by bus companies? The real test of the Bill's success when it is enacted will come when local authorities and the bus companies start seriously to talk together about improving services.

Rosie Winterton: My hon. Friend is right, and I thank him for the work that he did in the Transport Committee, scrutinising the Bill. It allowed us to make amendments to the Bill to improve it, and I shall come to those later. He is right to say that the Bill's success will depend on its practical implementation and the relationship that can be built up between local authorities and the bus operators in a positive way for the benefit of bus users.
	As I was saying, the actions that we have taken during the 10 years of the Labour Government have made a real difference. They have meant the development of not only the partnerships to which reference has been made, but the partnership between central and local government. It has meant that we have managed to halt the decline in bus usage and delivered the first sustained year-on-year increase in patronage. About 500 million more journeys are made than was the case 10 years ago.

Elfyn Llwyd: What the Minister says is right, and I have seen the improvement in my constituency. Some 10 days ago, a consultation document on subsidy was published, yet the Bill will go into Committee without our knowing what recommendations come out of that consultation. Is that not unfortunate timing? Surely subsidy is an important word in the context of the Bill.

Rosie Winterton: How we deliver the bus service operators grant in future is important, and that is open to consultation. It would not have been right to delay the whole Bill until we had been through the consultation and then examine the Bill in that context; things can be done the other way round. We know that powers in the Bill will give local authorities and bus operators the ability to move forward together. If the hon. Gentleman were to examine the consultation document, he would see that it contains a few suggestions as to how the grant might be used to support the increased usage of bus services. So, it would not have been right to wait until the whole thing had been finished before considering the Bill.

Theresa Villiers: rose—

Rosie Winterton: I shall give way to the hon. Lady, but then I ought to move on.

Theresa Villiers: Does the Minister agree that the major bus success stories in the country have been brought about by voluntary partnerships, and not by the statutory partnerships or quality contracts proposed in the Bill?

Hon. Members: No.

Rosie Winterton: My hon. Friends said it all. If the hon. Lady thinks that the current situation is perfect, I do not understand how she can be talking to her constituents or those of other hon. and right hon. Members in her party. Voluntary partnerships have worked in some cases. In cities such as York and Cambridge, and sometimes in rural areas such as Warwickshire and Cheshire, bus services have been transformed and are consequently attracting growing numbers of passengers. Such examples show that people will return to buses if services are improved through effective partnership working between bus operators and local authorities, but for each place where partnership is making a real difference, there are many others where that is not the case and where more still needs to be done to provide the services that people want. I find it astonishing that the Conservative party does not recognise that.

Barbara Keeley: I agree with the Minister, and I want to see how we can move forward from this position. I have delivered petitions to this House from my constituents because bus services have been savagely cut in my constituency by First. I am looking forward to hearing her tell us more about how local authorities can move forward on the contracts and bus partnerships, because large parts of my constituency have no bus services any more.

Rosie Winterton: My hon. Friend is right, and her comments show that she is in touch with the needs of her constituents. She recognises that although voluntary partnerships can work in some areas, in others they do not and more needs to be done. We know that more needs to be done, and that is what the Bill is all about.

Several hon. Members: rose —

Rosie Winterton: I shall give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead).

Alan Whitehead: Is the Minister aware of the existence of an inter-authority organisation called the Partnership for Urban South Hampshire—PUSH—which has undertaken considerable discussion on the question of integrated transport arrangements? It would be interested in the possibility of becoming an integrated transport authority under the terms of the Bill. Is she aware that the majority of PUSH's members are Conservative-controlled authorities? Does she share my concern that the Conservative party appears to wish to vote against the entire Bill and thus to deny those authorities the opportunity to provide the sort of integrated transport system that I believe south Hampshire urgently needs?

Rosie Winterton: Again, my hon. Friend makes an important point. I know from my visits around the country that politicians from all parties say that they would like to have greater powers in order to sit down with bus operators and make progress on schemes of exactly the type that he is talking about. He will know that the Bill gives areas the ability to examine their governance arrangements and to decide whether they want to establish integrated transport authorities. He rightly says that, again, the Conservative party does not seem to be in touch even with its own local councillors on this issue, because its approach does not reflect my experience when going around the country—all I can say is that perhaps Conservative Members need to get out a little bit more.

Mark Hunter: rose—

Rosie Winterton: I shall come back to the hon. Gentleman in a minute.
	The Bill is a direct response to what local authorities, transport users and, in some cases, transport operators have told us about the different challenges and circumstances faced in different parts of the country. In the summer of 2006, the Government launched a wide-ranging review of bus services across the country. In December 2006, we published our conclusions in "Putting Passengers First", and in May 2007, we published the draft Local Transport Bill. That was followed by a period of consultation. As I said, I made a series of regional visits to listen to people's views about how the draft Bill could help in their areas and to their suggestions about how it could be further improved.
	As a result of our public consultation and scrutiny, including a report from the Transport Committee, we were able to make some very significant improvements to the Bill before it was introduced to Parliament, including the following: taking powers to set up a statutory body to represent bus passengers; ensuring that the provisions of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations, following representations from the trade unions, apply where staff are affected by a quality contract scheme; and giving traffic commissioners the power to require operators to invest in improvements or compensate passengers where services are not operating properly. The Bill was introduced in the other place in November, where it benefited from further changes, including measures to boost community transport and to improve the accessibility of taxi buses.

Paul Truswell: Further to the comments by the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers), is it not the case that the voluntary agreements that she extols exist solely on the basis of terms dictated by the bus operators and tend to be concentrated on a minority of highly profitable corridors?

Rosie Winterton: There are several instances in which voluntary agreements have been reached, but my hon. Friend is right to say that we need to look further at how we can increase the effectiveness of these agreements. That is what the Bill sets out to do. I know that he has been extremely concerned about local bus services in his area, and it is important that authorities are able to work with bus operators to reach an agreement. The Bill will give such agreements statutory force and I will describe later how that will make these partnerships more effective.

John Grogan: May I tempt my right hon. Friend to go a little further? Is there not a case for giving excellent transport authorities such as South Yorkshire passenger transport authority the ability to introduce quality contracts, without reference to external organisations, just as the Mayor of London can do? If she will not go that far, will she at least listen to the Transport Committee, which said that there should be a time limit on how long applications for quality contracts should be considered by the approvals board and the transport tribunal to prevent inordinate delays that would not be in the interests of bus passengers?

Rosie Winterton: I will address that particular point when I move on to some of the details of the Bill, but I understand the point that my hon. Friend makes.

Mark Hunter: I share the Minister's surprise that the Conservatives have apparently decided to vote against Second Reading. She has emphasised the importance of the quality contracts and the quality partnership agreements, but if they are so important why has there been such a dismally low take-up so far? What will the Government do about that?

Rosie Winterton: As I said earlier, there were powers in the Transport Act 2000 to allow the making of quality contracts and some partnership schemes. The problem with the quality contracts was that the threshold was set too high. That is the feedback that we have received. In a sense, that is why we are replacing the test of the only practical way of delivering services with the public interest test. The intention was to be able to make the quality contracts possible, in a similar way to some of the arrangements in London, but unfortunately that did not happen in several areas and that is why we are changing the situation. It was a good attempt, but we recognise that it has shortcomings.

Judy Mallaber: My right hon. Friend mentioned community transport. What estimate has she made of the potential impact of the welcome changes in the Bill, and does she share my surprise that the Opposition intend to vote against the Bill? That will upset the Opposition Chief Whip, my constituency neighbour, who has applauded the fact that these provisions will, with some adaptations, enable us to bring the dial-a-bus services in Derbyshire into the concessionary fare scheme.

Rosie Winterton: It is rare that my speeches are greeted with standing ovations, but when I spoke to the Community Transport Association and announced the changes that we intended to make in this Bill, there was immediate applause. I was quite taken aback, but it showed that the changes we are making to community transport—especially the ability to pay drivers and a change made in the House of Lords to allow local authorities to lease vehicles to community transport organisations—have been widely welcomed by the community transport sector. It is astonishing that the Conservatives do not recognise the importance of the change, which will have a real effect in rural areas. Why they have taken the view that they have taken is very surprising, and I suspect that it will not be very welcome to the local voluntary organisations with which they work. What repayment for the work that people do is it to vote against such a Bill? Their stance will undermine community transport provision when we are trying to improve it.
	I shall now turn to the Bill in a little more detail. Part 1 includes measures to strengthen the capacity of the traffic commissioners, who play an important role in the regulation of both the goods vehicle and bus sectors. This is important because, as I will explain shortly, other parts of the Bill will strengthen the commissioners' role in relation to bus services.
	Part 2 will reform the framework for local transport planning. It will enable integrated transport authorities to play a stronger role in planning local transport across local authority areas, by making them responsible for the preparation of local transport plans. That will help to ensure a consistent and coherent approach, for example in planning a network of bus lanes across a conurbation. Future local transport plans will also need to include proposals for implementing an area's local transport policies, and authorities will be under a new duty to have regard to the Government's environmental policies and guidance.
	Part 3 of the Bill will ensure that local authorities have a variety of realistic options for working with the bus industry to provide the services that passengers want. The Bill will give local councils the flexibility to choose the approach that is best suited to their particular local needs.
	Clauses 13 to 18 will enable quality partnership schemes—first introduced in the 2000 Act—to make more of a difference. Last year, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) mentioned, we saw the first quality partnership scheme come into force in Sheffield. This is now delivering a package of improvements, combining new vehicles with measures to reduce the impact of congestion on bus services. Similar schemes are now being considered in other places. However, this Bill will now enable these schemes to cover frequencies, timings and maximum fares—matters that are of crucial importance to passengers. It will allow, for the first time, quality partnership schemes to include "registration restrictions"—the Conservatives say that they oppose this in their reasoned amendment—so that operators who have not signed up to the scheme cannot run along the route if their doing so would undermine the scheme. That is the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell) made. The partnerships need strengthening so that they cannot be undermined by someone choosing to interfere in the agreement that bus operators and local authorities have reached.
	Clauses 19 to 40 will make bus franchising a much more realistic option for local authorities where they believe it is the right thing to do in their area. We have listened to the concerns of local councillors of all political persuasions that the existing legislation is too restrictive, and this Bill will put that right. Of course, authorities will still need to be satisfied that quality contract schemes are in the public interest, but they will no longer have to prove that they are the "only practicable way".
	My hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) raised a point about the approvals board for quality contract schemes. Our proposals would make quality contracts a more realistic option for local authorities, while ensuring that the legitimate interests of all parties are taken into account. If we can do that, it will dramatically reduce the scope for challenge.
	The proposals are in line with the recommendation of the Transport Committee that an independent approvals board should ensure that local authorities have undertaken the correct process for making a scheme. Of course, a local authority's policy—I know that that is what my hon. Friend is getting at—is a matter for that authority and its electorate. The role of the approvals body is to provide a robust check on whether a proposed scheme is consistent with that policy, provides value for money, satisfies the criteria prescribed in legislation and is in the wider public interest, as well as whether due process has been approved.
	The approvals process will provide a robust check and balance in the process but will also significantly reduce the risk of a scheme being taken through a costly and time-consuming judicial review. We agree that the process should not cause undue delay and the Bill includes a power to specify in regulations a time limit within which the approvals board should reach its decisions. We understand that the process needs to be efficient and quick. Regulations will include the ability to give an indication of that. However, if months are required to make a quality contract, we need to compare that time with the years it could take for a challenge under judicial review. This is a belt-and-braces approach for local authorities to ensure that they have that security when they make a contract scheme.

Clive Betts: That point goes to the heart of an important issue. I listened very carefully to what my right hon. Friend just said about the processes for quality contracts, but is it not true that judicial review is essentially a challenge to a process that has not been carried out properly? That option will still be open to operators if they do not like the quality contracts and want the free-for-all that we have now. My right hon. Friend has just set out the fact that the approvals board will have the power to consider issues such as value for money and the wider public interest. Could there not be simply a difference of view between an approvals board and an elected passenger transport authority? The view of the approvals board would triumph in such circumstances, overriding the democratically elected body. Is that really acceptable?

Rosie Winterton: We do not envisage that the process would involve a straight yes or no. It could be iterative. We would envisage that the approvals board would have, under the traffic commissioner, an economist and perhaps a transport expert to ensure that it could consider the economics of the scheme. Judicial review might not just be on the grounds of a process that was not followed. Other issues come into play, for example when a business can no longer operate in an area. Those are different grounds that could be used. We are trying to have a process that could be iterative at the same time—that is, that could involve discussions about maximum fares or the viability of routes. It is not an attempt to make it more difficult to get quality contracts, but to ensure that quality contracts can work and can be introduced effectively and efficiently without the huge delays caused by a judicial process.

Clive Betts: I entirely accept that if an approvals board agrees with the passenger transport authority that quality contracts are the way forward, that could be a stronger position to defend if a judicial review eventually happened. That goes without saying, but is it not possible that the approvals board, simply as a matter of opinion, could reach a different view on the right way forward for bus passenger services in an area from the passenger transport authority? In such a situation, is it not true that under the Bill the approvals board could overrule the decision of the passenger transport authority and decide on a way forward of which the authority did not approve?

Rosie Winterton: It will not be for an approvals board to design a system for a local area. The board will consider the proposals and say whether it believes—this could be done through discussion—that they will stand up and deliver what the local authority thinks they will. It is not a question of a transport expert going to an area and saying, "We will have an entirely different approach in this matter." We expect the boards to be a facility that will enable local authorities to introduce quality contracts, if that is in the public interest, as quickly and effectively as possible. It is important that we put in place a mechanism that means that local authorities are not constantly taken to judicial review. I am sure that we shall continue to discuss this subject in Committee, but I ought to move on.

Norman Baker: I understand the Minister's desire to ensure that there is a robust system in place to prevent unnecessary judicial review, but we also have the hurdle of the transport tribunal. If the approvals board is the external validation process that provides that rigour and defence, why is there further recourse to the transport tribunal? Why is that provision in the Bill as a further hurdle?

Rosie Winterton: If we want to be absolutely sure that the route will mean that it will be more difficult to go to judicial review, there has to be an option of appeal against the approvals board. That is why we put that provision in the Bill. It is a belt-and-braces approach. Because one could if necessary judicially review the approvals board, there is a further appeal.
	Let me move on to voluntary partnership arrangements. Clause 41 and schedule 2 make some important changes to competition law as it applies to the bus market. The aim is to ensure that competition law does not prevent local authorities and bus operators from coming together at the partnership table. At the moment, if bus operators come together with local authorities under a voluntary partnership to discuss, for example, times when they might run complementary services, they risk falling foul of competition law. The Bill will mean that operators can sit down with local authorities and plan services more effectively.
	Part 4 contains various further measures on passenger transport. For example, clauses 52 to 56 will help to create new opportunities for the community transport sector, which plays an important local role, often in the areas with the greatest social need. As I said, the Community Transport Association has given a warm welcome to measures in the Bill that will allow its members greater flexibility over the types of vehicles that they can use, and that allow drivers of community bus services to be paid.
	Clauses 57 to 60 will help to ensure that action can be taken where, for whatever reason, bus services are consistently unreliable. Traffic commissioners will still be able to apply financial penalties when bus operators are at fault, but now in a way that directly benefits passengers, requiring the operator to invest in service improvements or to pay compensation to passengers.
	The Bill will also enable the traffic commissioners to hold local authorities to account if their failure to meet their traffic management duties contributes to the poor reliability of bus services. They will be able to make recommendations to bus operators and local authorities alike about how things might be put right. We have done that to respond to the legitimate concerns of bus operators, who have sometimes said, "We've made improvements in local areas, but the local authority has not kept its side of the bargain." Again, it is astonishing that the Opposition wish to vote against that.

Andrew Gwynne: My right hon. Friend makes a very important point that goes back to what she was saying about the new role for integrated transport authorities. Often, some local authorities in a metropolitan area are good at introducing quality bus measures, but others are appalling at it, which has a knock-on impact on the level of service. Does she agree that the changes proposed in the Bill will mean that across a whole metropolitan county there could be a proper network with proper quality bus measures? That will mean that the reliability of bus services, which she has mentioned, can better be guaranteed.

Rosie Winterton: Absolutely. My hon. Friend is quite right. I should add again that when I have visited local areas and talked to people who are trying to deliver transport, councillors of all parties have said that they have sometimes come across that problem. They have said that they could do much more if the powers in the Bill were already in place. They say, "Please get these powers in place as soon as possible." The Opposition Front-Bench team do not want them at all.
	There is widespread agreement that at the same time as strengthening the traffic commissioners' role, we need to give passengers a stronger voice about the services that they use. Talking to passengers makes it very clear what they want: buses that go where they want to go, when they want to travel, and are clean, comfortable and not overcrowded, and reliable services that get to their destinations quickly and efficiently.
	We need to put passengers at the heart of our bus services, and give them the opportunity to hold those services to account. There are already well-established bodies that are helping to do just that, often operating at local or regional level. Many people have argued, however, and I agree, that there is a good case for establishing a statutory body, with statutory powers, to act as a champion of the needs of the bus passenger. We launched a full public consultation last December, and we are now carefully considering the many responses that we have received. There is a clear consensus about the need for a bigger passenger voice, and we will announce our conclusions shortly. Clauses 68 and 69 contain the primary powers that would enable us to take forward that important agenda in future secondary legislation.
	Many of the transport challenges that our communities face require local areas to work closely in partnership with each other. That relates to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne). Those partnerships must have the powers and authority to make the decisions that are needed. Passenger transport authorities and passenger transport executives play a crucial role in delivering public transport in our major cities outside London, but the current arrangements have been in place for several decades and do not always lead to coherent transport planning across our major urban areas. We therefore want to support those urban areas that are now starting to explore the options for reform.
	Instead of taking a prescriptive approach to local transport governance, part 5 of the Bill lays the foundations for local areas themselves to examine the strengths and weaknesses of their existing arrangements. They will be able to develop their own proposals for reforms to suit their local needs, which could then be implemented in secondary legislation tailored to the needs of the individual area. That process could lead to a stronger role for integrated transport authorities, perhaps with stronger powers on important matters such as bus lanes, leading to a more coherent and consistent approach such as my hon. Friend described.

Roberta Blackman-Woods: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Minister, who is being very generous in giving way. Under the Bill, would it be possible for an integrated passenger authority to cover a whole region, for example the north-east of England, if proper consultation took place and authorities were prepared to buy into it?

Rosie Winterton: What we have said is that we want local authorities themselves to consider what will work best. We would expect wide consensus in the setting up of new bodies, and my hon. Friend will know better than I whether such consensus is likely to be reached at regional level. Of course, other transport planning measures are possible under other legislation, such as multi-area agreements. It is quite possible for local authorities to get together much more effectively than was previously the case and to plan more widely, and we are already seeing that. I am sure my hon. Friend knows that the changes that are taking place in relation to the regional development agencies and so on are causing people to look closely at how to deal with transport.
	Governance reforms could obviously be particularly beneficial in areas that are considering the role that road charging could play alongside investment in local public transport. The Bill makes it absolutely clear that it is for local authorities, not central Government, to decide whether local road charging is right for their areas. It confirms that scheme revenues are for the local authority involved to spend on local transport, even after the first 10 years of a scheme. It also ensures that the right powers are available to secure consistency and interoperability between schemes, helping to avoid confusion and complexity for road users.

Greg Knight: In 2005, the Labour party manifesto stated that, if re-elected, the Labour Government would move away from
	"the current system of motoring taxation towards a national system of road-pricing."
	If road pricing schemes get the go-ahead under the Bill, which existing motoring taxes will be reduced or abolished?

Rosie Winterton: The Bill is not about a national road pricing scheme. It is about local road pricing schemes, if local areas want them. Frankly, the type of changes that the right hon. Gentleman is talking about would be impractical in a local area and a local scheme, and I am sure he knows that. What we have said, however, as I have just stated, is that any revenue raised will be ploughed back into public transport even after the first 10 years of any road pricing approach.

Mark Hunter: I thank the Minister for giving way; she continues to be very generous with her time. She says that decisions about road charging schemes will be taken locally and should be in the hands of local authorities. What is her view of the current situation in Greater Manchester, with which she will be familiar? Seven of the 10 boroughs are apparently in favour of such a scheme, but the other three are most definitely not. Does she intend that the Government will continue with their policy and effectively force the scheme on the rest of the conurbation of Greater Manchester, whether it likes it or not?

Rosie Winterton: Obviously, the discussions about the Manchester transport innovation fund bid are still going on, and we will examine the proposals when they come to us.
	As I hope is clear, the Bill has a strong focus on empowering local communities to address the transport challenges that they face today and will face in the years ahead. It does so by ensuring that the right powers are available at the right level to deliver the changes that are needed locally, by giving a stronger voice to transport users and by ensuring that the right governance arrangements can be put in place locally so that the decisions that are needed can be made. There is a great deal of support for the Bill, not least because transport users, local government and central Government agree that we need local communities to be empowered to secure services that are designed around the needs of passengers—local transport that genuinely puts the needs of the travelling public first.
	This Labour Government have vastly improved the provision of bus services in this country, after the disastrous actions of the previous Tory Government. I hoped that all parties would support the Bill today, but the Opposition have apparently decided not to do so. That shows exactly how out of touch they are with the real concerns of people in this country. It will remind us of the real attitude of the Conservative Party, which goes back to Margaret Thatcher's view that if a man was using a bus after the age of 30, he was a failure. What nonsense. Millions of people use our bus services, and if the Opposition do not support the Bill, they will be turning their back on those people. It will be frankly astonishing not to support these changes, and I am amazed that they are even considering that. I know it will be against the will of many of their representatives in local government. Without a Labour Government there would be no national concessionary travel scheme, nor the increase in bus use that has been evident over the past 10 years. This Bill is a further step on that journey of improvement, and I commend it to the House.

Theresa Villiers: I beg to move,
	That this House declines to give a Second Reading to the Local Transport Bill [ Lords] because it encourages the introduction of Quality Contract schemes to reregulate bus networks, thus preventing free competition between bus operators, undermining service quality for passengers and jeopardising the partnerships between operators and local authorities that have helped to improve service quality; because it fails to give due weight to the importance of consultation and local consent when local congestion charging schemes are considered; and because it transfers revenue-raising powers to the National Assembly for Wales without proper constitutional justification and in doing so allows Wales to be used as a test bed for the Government's untried, untested national road pricing scheme.
	I want to start by emphasising one thing very clearly—buses matter. Any Conservative Government led by David Cameron will do all that they can to improve bus services for passengers. Two thirds of all journeys by public transport are made by bus every year. That is well above the combined total of journeys on both the London underground and the whole national rail network. For thousands of people across the country, the bus is the only option when it comes to local public transport.
	So buses matter to our quality of life and to our economic prosperity. Critically, of course, they now also matter when it comes to tackling problems caused by climate change and worsening traffic congestion. Increasing bus ridership should play a significant part in a successful strategy to tackle both those vital issues for our country, so I welcome the fact that this Bill gives us time in Parliament to debate the future of the UK's bus network.

Angela Smith: Given what the hon. Lady has just said, and given that her party leader is in favour of improving bus services, why are the Opposition not voting for the Bill today?

Theresa Villiers: We have tabled the amendment because we do not believe that the Bill is the best way to improve local bus services. As I shall explain, not all of the Bill is controversial. We agree with some elements, but we think that significant parts of it take our bus network in the wrong direction.

Clive Efford: I do not doubt that the hon. Lady values buses, but unfortunately her hon. Friends do not. She could fit into a London taxi the Conservative MPs present for this debate; she would not need a bus.  [ Interruption. ] I declare my interests. The hon. Lady said that bus deregulation had worked outside London. If that is so, why has overall bus ridership outside London fallen rather than risen?

Theresa Villiers: There are many differences between the London example and the rest of the country. It is clear that the level of subsidy in London has a much more significant impact on ridership than matters to do with regulation or deregulation. It is simply not possible to make a causal link between the regulatory structure in London and levels of ridership. That equation does not add up.

Graham Stringer: I listened carefully to the answer given by the hon. Lady. The Select Committee on Transport has produced a number of reports on the question of subsidies, however, and if she has read them, she will know that virtually no subsidy was given to the regulated London bus system until the city got a Mayor. Even so, the passenger figures for London remained static, while those for metropolitan areas in the rest of the country fell. Does not that make the case for regulating the bus system outside London, or would she prefer to deregulate bus services in London, since they are so good?

Theresa Villiers: I assure the hon. Gentleman that we have no plans to change the system in the capital, where special circumstances apply. However, he fails to make the case for a causal connection between the regulatory system in London and the recorded increases in ridership. The subsidy in London amounts to £638 million, and that clearly makes a significant difference. The disparity between ridership in London and the rest of the country is not due to the regulatory system in place in the capital.

Clive Betts: I want to get this right. The hon. Lady has said that there is no causal relationship between the regulatory system that operates in London and bus ridership. However, she accepts that the capital has been very successful in increasing bus ridership. If there is no causal relationship between the two, why does she rule out the possibility of changing the regulatory environment in London?

Theresa Villiers: As I said, we have no plans to change the regulatory system in London.
	I turn now to the Bill itself. We welcome the provisions on community transport that the Minister outlined earlier, and those aimed at preventing competition law from getting in the way of sensible arrangements to co-ordinate and improve bus services. Of course it is vital to police anti-competitive practices effectively, but it makes no sense if competition law actively frustrates arrangements that benefit passengers.
	Competition law, as some people currently interpret it, can put a very real barrier in the way of efforts to improve local bus services. Even a low-key discussion between bus operators to consider co-ordination measures aimed at benefiting passengers can potentially give rise to dawn raids by competition authorities and the police. It is a matter of serious concern that this problem remains unsolved so long after deregulation.
	In that regard, I want to pay tribute to the work done by the Campaign for Better Transport. The Opposition can see some appealing arguments in favour of the call that that organisation makes in its briefing on the Bill for a wider remit for the revised competition test set out in schedule 2. The campaign's ideas on taking into account the competition provided between car and bus, and not just between bus operators, is also something that we consider well worth exploring.

Rob Marris: The hon. Lady seemed to suggest that competition needs to be somewhat regulated in the interests of users. Will she explain why the amendment proposes free competition between bus operators?

Theresa Villiers: We are saying that some competition laws get in the way of the effective provision of better services for passengers. Those laws need to be reformed to ensure that they work more efficiently and do not get in the way of the provision of better services for passengers.
	We also welcome efforts to strengthen the voice of bus passengers and to establish a "bus champion", and we recognise the valuable work already done in that respect by Bus Users UK. We note the observations made by the National Consumer Council on this aspect of the Bill, and its call for the new organisation to be a strong national advocacy body with a clear remit to improve bus travel for the consumer. The NCC is correct to emphasise the importance of founding the work of the new body on sound ongoing qualitative and quantitative research. In that regard, we can learn from the precedent set by the high-quality research produced by Passenger Focus in the rail context.
	I turn now to the Bill's more controversial provisions, and specifically to clauses 13 to 18 on statutory quality partnerships. An invention of this Government, these statutory arrangements have lagged behind voluntary partnerships in delivering service improvements. According to the passenger transport executive group, only one statutory quality partnership has been implemented since the partnerships were introduced in the Transport Act 2000, and I understand that it is to be found on the A6135—the Barnsley road—in Sheffield.
	I very much hope that that scheme is successful, but the fact that it appears to be the sole example of the use of this fundamental element of the Government's bus policy must lead us to question the effectiveness of such arrangements. I have yet to hear from the Minister exactly what can be achieved using a statutory arrangement that cannot be delivered using the voluntary arrangements that already have a proven track record in many areas of the country.

Angela Smith: I represent part of the city of Sheffield, and I draw the hon. Lady's attention to the fact that it proved extremely difficult to put in place the contract for the Barnsley road quality partnership scheme. Does she agree that that underlines the need for this Bill, as it will make quality partnerships easier to use in future?

Theresa Villiers: No. I believe that the Barnsley road example illustrates the fact that it is voluntary partnerships that are delivering around the country. There are many examples of that, some of which I shall come to in a moment.
	We believe that the move in the Bill to include fares and frequencies in quality partnerships must be accompanied by measures to ensure that transport authorities take a reasonable approach to such arrangements. There must be proper safeguards in place to ensure that it is not possible for a local authority to put provisions in its quality partnership arrangements that would be uncommercial and impractical to implement. That is why we will scrutinise with great care what is meant by an "admissible objection" as set out in clause 18, and how the reasonableness test envisaged by the Bill will work in practice. It would clearly be wrong for local authorities to be able to impose regulation via the quality partnership system without putting in place the safeguards envisaged for quality contracts.
	The concept of admissible objection will be pivotal in determining whether that risk materialises and whether the quality partnership provisions will be workable, so clear guidance on the meaning of the term is needed at the earliest opportunity. I therefore appeal to the Minister to publish the guidance—the Government tend to rely on guidance—on the clause as soon as possible, preferably before the Bill goes into Committee. That would be extremely helpful in establishing the meaning of that important term.
	Clauses 19 to 40 are on quality contracts, which are another centrepiece of the Government's bus policy, but which take us in the wrong direction. It is no surprise that they have sat on the statute book as a white elephant since their introduction, unused and irrelevant to effective attempts to improve bus services for passengers. I am the first to admit that the history of the deregulated bus network has not always lacked controversy, but I believe that the private sector has, in general, made a positive contribution when it comes to quality of service for passengers. There are undoubtedly some bus operators who underperform; that happens in all markets.

Dari Taylor: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Theresa Villiers: In one moment. I believe that, overall, the investment stimulus, innovation and entrepreneurial skills and expertise in product development and marketing that the bus companies have introduced have had a positive impact on services. It seems clear that private enterprise has facilitated a more rapid renewal of the bus fleet and a more efficient cost base than would ever have been possible under the old system.

Roberta Blackman-Woods: I must confess that I am struggling to follow the logic of the argument. Quality contracts have often not worked because their structure has been too inflexible to meet local requirements. The point of the Bill is to free the system up a little, so that contracts can reflect local circumstances and services can be tailored to local needs. I do not know why the hon. Lady and her party do not support that as a way forward.

Theresa Villiers: We are not supporting that because we do not believe that quality contracts will deliver the service improvements and increased ridership that we all want. I do not believe that those benefits will be delivered by winding back the clock to the 1980s and re-regulating the bus network. That is why we oppose moves in the Bill to make the quality contract route back towards regulation easier for local transport authorities to use.

Paul Truswell: Will the hon. Lady answer the simple question that has been asked several times by Labour Members: if she thinks that regulation in London is good and acceptable, why is it bad for my constituents, her constituents, and the vast majority of constituents represented in the House?

Theresa Villiers: What I have said repeatedly is that the increase in ridership in London is not due to the regulatory system in use in London. It is due to the £638 million a year that is spent on subsidising the bus network. It is also partly due to Transport for London taking an aggressive approach to enforcing bus priority. Both those circumstances distinguish London from the rest of the country.

Angela Smith: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way; she is very generous with her time. Do I detect a change in Opposition policy? Are the Opposition actually in favour of subsidy, given that their argument is that it has worked in London? If so, does she recant Tory Bromley council's judgment against the Greater London council in the early 1980s, which outlawed subsidy?

Theresa Villiers: There is no change in policy. Our policy on bus services in London has been consistent.

Judy Mallaber: Did the hon. Lady not hear the intervention made by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer)? He pointed out that before there was subsidy in London, bus ridership was decreasing outside London, but stayed stable in London, and when there was subsidy, bus ridership further increased in London? Does she not agree that that proves the point? The figures show that regulation helped bus ridership in London, and those figures were given to her in an earlier intervention.

Theresa Villiers: If the hon. Lady looks at the figures, she will see that the steepest fall in bus ridership occurred before deregulation, when there was an increase in car ownership across the country. The decrease in bus ridership started to level off in the years immediately after deregulation.

Rob Marris: If I understand the hon. Lady's argument on London and other metropolitan areas—I represent a seat in one such area, the west midlands—she is saying that the reason for the increased patronage in London is high levels of subsidy, rather than the regulatory regime. If that is her argument, is she telling the House that she would cut the subsidy in London? Or would she increase subsidies in metropolitan areas to encourage patronage?

Theresa Villiers: What I am saying is that introducing the regulatory system applicable in London to the rest of the country would not deliver the service improvements that we want. In future, we would certainly look to remove quality contracts altogether as an option outside London; we think that they are neither necessary nor effective in improving bus services in the UK. The Opposition believe that successful partnerships between local transport authorities and bus companies are the best way to deliver improvements in reliability and service quality.

Clive Betts: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way again. Let us look at the issue in a slightly different way. My understanding is that the Opposition are now in favour of greater freedoms for local authorities. That is their policy. As I understand it, the Bill does not force local authorities to enter into quality contracts; it gives them the right to do so if they wish, because of local circumstances. The Conservative-controlled Local Government Association has actually called for councils to have
	"stronger powers to deliver better bus services."
	Does that not conflict with the policy statement that the hon. Lady made to the House this afternoon?

Theresa Villiers: It does not conflict. The hon. Gentleman misunderstands localism, which does not always mean devolving to local bureaucracies. It means vesting power in the customer and the consumer. We believe that a deregulated bus system is the best way to vest power in the consumer and the passenger.

Norman Baker: What representations on the Bill has the hon. Lady received from local Conservative councillors, and does her local group of Conservative councillors approve of the amendment that she has tabled?

Theresa Villiers: I have had many representations on the Bill from a number of groups, including Conservative councillors.
	The best examples around the country demonstrate what can be achieved when a transport authority is prepared to take difficult decisions on bus priority, and when bus operators respond with investment in better training, better vehicles and better facilities. Areas such as Brighton and Hove, and Telford and Wrekin, demonstrate that successful partnership working can produce better vehicles, more investment, better information, simplified fare structures and ticketing, higher-quality services and, most important of all, increased ridership.

Andrew Gwynne: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Theresa Villiers: No, I will make progress now. Close partnership working in Brighton delivered a 5 per cent. year-on-year growth in ridership and a 10 per cent. decrease in town centre traffic. The Government are wrong to see statutory quality partnerships and quality contracts as ends in themselves. The rarity of such partnerships and contracts is further proof that in many areas, voluntary partnerships can work well for local authorities and bus companies that have the mutual confidence to work together for the benefit of passengers, without the need for the local authority to resort to formal powers to control and regulate services.
	Far from encouraging that kind of partnership working, the Government recently lobbed a hand-grenade into the relationship between transport authorities and bus operators. I am referring, of course, to the way in which they are introducing concessionary fares. Of course, the goals of the scheme are entirely laudable, but the way it is being put into practice is damaging the relationships that are vital to making bus partnerships work. It is clear that the scheme is leaving local authorities with a huge funding headache and council tax payers with a large bill.
	Ironically, in some cases, as a result of the local authority funding crisis caused by the concessionary fares scheme, bus routes are under threat, either because the local authority is concerned that it can no longer afford to subsidise routes, or because the bus company finds routes uneconomic as a result of the financial pressures of the scheme. In a further ironic twist, Brighton and Hove—a striking bus success story in recent years—is one of the areas hardest hit by the problems with the concessionary fares scheme. That scheme has all the hallmarks of a proposal rushed through on Budget day without proper thought about how it would be set up or funded. That was playing politics with the bus network in a way that is simply unacceptable.

Andrew Gwynne: A moment ago the hon. Lady spoke about transport authorities that had taken tough decisions to get quality bus measures on the ground. The example that she gives, Brighton and Hove, is a unitary transport authority. How does she reconcile what she is saying with the measures in the Bill that she opposes? In the metropolitan areas, the transport authorities are the passenger transport authorities, which will become integrated transport authorities. In Greater Manchester, where there are 10 highways authorities, getting them to agree to a single standard for quality bus measures is difficult. The measures in the Bill will give those powers to the integrated transport authority. How does she reconcile that—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must know that an intervention should be brief, not a mini-speech.

Theresa Villiers: That takes me on to my next point. Some of the changes proposed in the Bill in relation to the structure of transport authorities and the Government's arrangements could be useful. We would not oppose every single one of those governance changes. I particularly welcome the representations on the issue that I have received from the PTE group.
	The Opposition share the PTE group's view that there should be no scope for imposition by the Secretary of State of non-elected members on the renamed integrated transport authorities. There will be consensus across the House with the PTE group's point that we should not seek to impose uniformity on passenger transport authority areas or PTE areas or their governance arrangements, as no single model will be right for every area. With reference to the example given by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), the arrangements clearly worked in that context. It is not necessarily the right model for other parts of the country, which is why it is important to ensure flexibility in the Government's arrangements.

Stewart Jackson: Does my hon. Friend agree that not for the first time, one of the key problems with the policy is that there is no robust methodological analysis of the likely take-up of the scheme? That has significant financial implications for local authorities. It is all very well for the Government to announce it, but the fact that they have not done the detailed work to assess the likely take-up will impact on council tax payers across the country, including those in my constituency.

Theresa Villiers: I take it that my hon. Friend is referring to the concessionary fares scheme. It is a particular concern that the cost of the scheme is extremely unpredictable. That is one of the key problems. Local authorities do not feel that they know how much the liability will ultimately be. That makes it difficult for them to plan, and they are not getting adequate guidance from the Government on how to deal with that uncertainty.
	I return to the governance issues. The proposals in the Bill to give increased flexibility to allow individual non-metropolitan districts to join a PTA or integrated transport authority, without the need for a whole county to join, seem broadly sensible, as are powers to enable the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to share with local authorities information about foreign registered vehicles.
	One of the most controversial elements of the Bill is the provisions in part 6 on local congestion charging schemes. The Opposition believe that congestion charging should not be used to seek to price people off the road altogether, and nor must it become just another stealth tax. We must not ignore the fact that there is a social justice angle to the debate on road pricing and congestion charging. The freedom to travel is an important element of people's quality of life.

Judy Mallaber: Will the hon. Lady explain to me why she uses the term "stealth tax"? Nobody could say that a scheme such as the congestion charge in London was introduced by stealth. Does she agree that her choice of words is based on pure political dogma, rather than proper analysis?

Theresa Villiers: Given that so much of the revenue from the London congestion charge is generated by fines, there probably is a fairly stealthy element to it.
	I return to the point that I was making. A key part of reconciling local congestion charging projects with social justice is to ensure that where they operate, they are accompanied by viable alternative travel arrangements open to those on lower incomes. We hope that before embarking on the schemes envisaged in part 6, local authorities will make the greatest efforts to ensure that they are accompanied by measures to improve local public transport. That is why we are seeking the clearest of guarantees from the Government that the funds raised by these schemes will stay local and will be used for improvements to local public transport and local roads. Yes, there are safeguards in clauses 97 and 98, but we all know that ways can be found to squeeze budgets and grants in the expectation that the local authority can make up the shortfall with revenue from congestion charges. We will test these clauses strongly in Committee to do all we can to ensure that no such circumvention is possible and that the funds stay local and remain devoted to transport.
	We will scrutinise the provisions on interoperability carefully to seek to ensure that we will not end up with a patchwork of different requirements across the country requiring multiple equipment for drivers.

Rob Marris: The hon. Lady is being very generous. Do I understand that the Conservative party now supports hypothecation? If that is the case, can she remind me when the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) announced that policy?

Theresa Villiers: I do not see this as an instance of hypothecation. The charges are about transport. They should be devoted to transport.
	A central concern for the Opposition on this part of the Bill is that on local charging schemes, the Government are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, the Government clearly want the charging schemes to go ahead, or they would not have made transport innovation fund bids conditional on the introduction of congestion charging. On the other, they do not want bear the political risk that goes with those schemes. The Secretary of State wants to keep her head below the parapet and let local transport authorities take the flack for introducing new charges. That is wrong.

Greg Knight: Is not my hon. Friend fully justified in using the phrase "stealth taxes" in relation to congestion charging, because in the Bill the word "congestion" does not appear? The reference is to road charging schemes. Such a scheme would not necessarily have to have reducing congestion as its main aim. It could be used for raising taxes.

Theresa Villiers: My right hon. Friend raises an important point. As ever, he has studied the Bill carefully.
	The transport innovation fund should not be used to bully or coerce local communities into introducing charging schemes. The decision on those schemes should be taken locally, not in Whitehall, so TIF bids should be judged on the merits of the transport ideas that they propose, regardless of whether they include congestion charging.

Elfyn Llwyd: The point of the way in which the Bill is framed in the context of the Welsh Assembly, for example, is for the Assembly to decide whether or not road charging is appropriate. Instead of being dictated from this place, the matter should be devolved to Wales to be decided locally.

Theresa Villiers: I shall come to that clause in a moment. I am astounded that the Bill seeks to water down the requirements to consult local communities on charging schemes. The Opposition will strongly oppose clause 104, which contains the same text as the much-criticised clause 73 of the draft Bill, which downgrades the importance of consultation. We note the concerns expressed on the clause by organisations such as the Select Committee on Transport, the RAC Foundation for Motoring and the Association of British Drivers.
	As the Bill passes through the Commons, we want consultation requirements strengthened, not weakened. For example, given the impact that congestion charging can have on rail services, it is vital that the consultation process includes rail and freight operators. I note the useful representations received from Network Rail on that point, emphasising how important it is that local authorities take into account relevant rail plans, such as route utilisation strategies in a range of activities touched on by the Bill, including the local transport plans covered by clause 9.
	We have said time and again that these schemes should go ahead only if they are locally led—if they have the consent and support of local people. That is why we will table amendments to empower and encourage local authorities to hold referendums either before introducing such schemes or once they have been up and running for a trial period. We do not seek to mandate this approach, but we wish to send the signal that a referendum should always be seriously considered as an option, and we will seek to clarify the legal status of local referendums. It is a concern in Bolton, for example, that should the referendum that the local authority is contemplating in that area go ahead, it would have no legal status at all.
	During the passage of the Bill, we will do all we can to ensure that it cannot be used as a Trojan horse for the introduction of the Government's untried, untested spy-in-the-sky national road pricing scheme. Our steadfast opposition to such a scheme is just one of the reasons why we shall oppose clause 115, which could make Wales a potential test bed for the Government's national scheme by giving the Welsh Assembly power to introduce charging on all Welsh trunk roads. No such power for equivalent English roads is included in the Bill. Why should the Welsh have to put up with unpopular policies that the Government are, as yet, not quite foolhardy enough to put into practice elsewhere in the UK?
	It is a matter of huge concern that that significant revenue-raising power is being introduced by the back door in a transport Bill without the high-level debate on the constitutional implications of the change proposed. As the noble Lord Glentoran pointed out in the other place, the clause effectively gives the Assembly the power to levy taxation in Wales, despite the fact that it has no such power within the current constitutional settlement. There is, of course, every danger that the provision could be used as a stalking horse for a UK-wide scheme.
	Labour's deeply unpopular spy-in-the-sky national road pricing policy just will not seem to die; just when we think we have nailed it, it returns to grab us by the throat again. The national scheme was announced with a fanfare by the now Chancellor during his tenure at the Department for Transport, but the Government seemed to signal a retreat on it after 1.8 million people signed the Downing street petition opposing it. Given the shift in emphasis to local projects, it began to look as if the Secretary of State had recognised how misguided the Government's plans for a national scheme were. Yet sadly it transpires that, just as happened with home information packs, her voice is not heard very loudly in the Government—lo and behold, the Chancellor suddenly announced plans to revive national road pricing in his Budget.
	The truth is that such a scheme is fraught with risks. In the hands of the Government, an IT system to track every one of the 33 million vehicles on every road in Britain, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, is simply a public procurement disaster waiting to happen. There is no reason to believe that the DVLA has the quality of data needed to make such a system operate smoothly in practice, given its inadequate performance on rogue drivers and tax evasion. Even the Government's own figures suggest that details for as many as 7.5 million drivers may be wrong. Above all, how could we possibly trust this Government—the people who lost in the post the personal details of every family in the country—with sensitive data on where every vehicle is on every road on every day of every year?
	There might have been technical ways in which to tackle those privacy issues, but the catastrophic breaches of data security in recent months show clearly that the Government simply could not be trusted to put them into practice in a competent way. The series of data disasters show that the Government have failed in their basic duty to safeguard the interests of the people whom they were elected to serve. The Government have well and truly forfeited the right to be trusted in running the national road pricing scheme that they propose. That is one of the reasons why we shall oppose giving the Bill a Second Reading.
	In conclusion, we believe that in their 10 years in office, the Government have wholly failed to tackle congestion. We have the most overcrowded roads in Europe. The Government have abandoned their targets for cutting congestion, broken their promises and left many local communities waiting years for much-needed bypasses. Their quality contract proposals were always a retrograde step, and it is no wonder they have lain unused, gathering dust on the legislative shelf, since the Government introduced them. We have seen the Government running for cover on their flagship roads policy, and 1.8 million people expressing their strong opposition. The Bill fails to make up for the 10 years of Labour failure on local transport. That is why we have tabled the amendment.

David Clelland: I rise to support the Bill and oppose the amendment. My contribution will be brief, but I want to welcome the Bill. This Second Reading follows last night's approval of the financial regime for the new national concessionary fares scheme; together with this Bill, that spells a good week for public transport.
	The Bill is long overdue, of course; as the Minister pointed out, the privatisation of bus services has led to a 20-year decline in bus ridership. Conversely, that has been accompanied by 20 years of healthy profits for the big five bus companies, which have cherry-picked the profitable routes, leaving thousands of our citizens with an inferior, and in some cases non-existent, bus service.
	The privatisation took control from elected local authorities and left local councils with little power to protect local services, except at considerable public cost. Given that public subsidy to the bus industry provides 33 per cent. of bus operator profits and that every bus is subsidised to the tune of £35,000, the public have a right to demand a say in how and where services are provided.
	The Bill begins to address the anomaly, and has the potential to reverse the decline in bus ridership. I say "the potential" because, good as this measure is, there could, as the Bill stands, be opportunities for bus operators to frustrate the desire of local transport authorities to provide better services to their communities. The system of approvals boards, appeals tribunals and possible judicial review, which is open to exploitation by bus operators, could delay the implementation of quality partnerships or quality contracts for years, during which operators would be able to continue to run unsatisfactory services or, in some areas, not to provide services at all.
	Given that there is an urgency to improve public transport, attract motorists out of their cars, reduce congestion, improve local economies and clean up the environment, we cannot afford for progress to be unreasonably or unnecessarily frustrated in the interests of bigger profits for the bus companies.
	I do not oppose private businesses making profits; on the contrary, I worked for a private business for more than 20 years, and I never thought it a good idea that my employer should make a loss. However, the profits in the bus business are very healthy—healthy enough for the bus companies to co-operate with the local authorities as the Bill intends without causing shareholders too much concern. The era of "take, take" by the bus companies has to be replaced by a system of sensible and responsible co-operation in the interests of all. I hope that during its consideration in Committee and on Report, the Bill can be strengthened to reflect the legitimate public interest that stems from the public subsidy to which I referred earlier.

Dari Taylor: My hon. Friend's point is incredibly valuable. I know of bus services that are cancelled, delayed, taken off—nobody knows about it and nobody answers when we ask why. Is he suggesting that a system of penalties should be included in the Bill so that operators know that if they do not deliver, we will?

David Clelland: I agree. The Bill does include penalties. The important point is that the penalties should be real, not ones that could be passed on to the bus customer or the local authorities.
	The Bill also makes provision for the creation of integrated transport authorities that would replace metropolitan passenger authorities such as the Tyne and Wear passenger transport authority. It is vital that the new authorities be made up of locally elected councillors with the statutory power to ensure the provision of good-quality, comprehensive, integrated, public transport systems. They should not be frustrated in that task by bus operators or unelected quangos. If Ministers mean what they say when they talk about giving more power to local people and enhancing local decision making, they have the opportunity to make actions follow words by ensuring that the provisions of the Bill bring that about.
	This morning, I welcomed to the House a group of students from Gateshead college, which is in my constituency. One of the issues that they raised with me was the lack of convenient public transport to get them to the magnificent new college premises on Gateshead quayside, and the cost of such buses as there are. I hope that the new ITAs will have the power to deal with the provision of such services and that, even now, the PTAs in the region can, in consultation with bus operators and other stakeholders, make progress towards the introduction of a new concessionary fare system across the north-east for young people in full-time education. That would do much for the young people themselves; it would also help close the skills gap and do much for the local economy.

Roberta Blackman-Woods: Does my hon. Friend agree that the young people whom we have met in the north-east have made an extremely valid case in favour of having such support from local authorities and the Government as they continue their education?

David Clelland: Indeed; I confirm that. The north east regional youth assembly and its offshoot called Bus Buddies have done a tremendous job in promoting young people's use of buses in the region.

Rosie Winterton: indicated assent.

David Clelland: The Minister is indicating that she has met Bus Buddies members, and I am sure that she is as impressed as we in the region are by the work that they have done.
	The Bill also deals with local congestion charging or road charging, which, while it may have its place and may even be inevitable in some areas, must be preceded by the provision of much improved, widely available, good-quality, efficient and affordable public transport. The provision of the latter may well, to some extent, negate the need for the former. However, we have to face reality. Many people will still use their cars, and road transport will still be the major form of transport in the United Kingdom for the foreseeable future. A properly linked-up, well maintained road network is an important part of local transport planning and provision—indeed, buses themselves need such provision—so roads will still need to be improved and, in some cases, new roads built. That, too, must be part of efficient transport planning.
	I welcome the Bill and congratulate the Government on introducing it. I hope that during its passage through the House it can be fine-tuned so that it can bring about the revolution in public transport provision that is so badly needed, and needed now, by our local communities.

Norman Baker: Let me begin by welcoming the Bill and indicating clearly that my colleagues and I will support its Second Reading. That is not to say that we do not have problems with it—naturally, we do—and we will seek to raise some of those this afternoon and again in Committee. However, the Bill undoubtedly takes us in the right direction.
	Before I come to those concerns, I must say something about the speech by the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers), which was the apex of incoherence as regards putting forward any sort of argument. She said that the statutory quality partnerships and contracts that had already been introduced were not working. That is quite true, and Bill has now been introduced to ensure that they do work by making it easier for local authorities to take part. She then said that certain issues in the Bill are worth exploring and acknowledged that it has some good points, but she then reached the conclusion that we should vote against Second Reading and abandon the Bill entirely. But that would mean that we would be unable to discuss those good points as they come up in Committee, unable to reform the current quality partnerships and contracts that she recognises are not working, and that we would be forced to carry on in some sort of Neverland where buses do not work properly, bus fares are going up and passengers are unable to get the service that they require. I do not know what kind of transport policy that is. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter) says, it shows the strategic understanding of Olive from "On the Buses". We deserve rather better than that. The hon. Lady said that she did not want to wind things back to the 1980s, but that is precisely what she is doing. She may not look like Mrs. Thatcher, but she certainly sounds like her at times.
	The Minister was kind enough to nick my line from last night about Mrs. Thatcher saying that that nobody over 30 uses a bus unless they are a failure in life. That is part of the problem. Buses have not been seen as a sensible transport alternative; instead, people have been driven on to the roads, and the consequence is that congestion is worsening, climate change is worsening as result of increased emissions from transport overall, and bus usage is declining. The Bill does not offer the perfect answer to that problem, but it goes some way towards resolving it.
	The Conservatives' alternative, in so far as there is one, is to go back to the days of unrestricted deregulation in the 1980s, but that has failed us. Hon. Members may remember Nicholas Ridley—the person who wanted councils to meet once a year to hand out contracts and who said, when he was Transport Secretary, that the aim of deregulation was
	"to halt the decline that has afflicted the bus industry for more than 20 years."—[ Official Report, 12 February 1985; Vol. 73, c. 192.]
	Since then, there has been a catastrophic decrease in bus usage, which has halved from nearly 9 billion journeys in the 1970s to 4.7 billion. However, there has been an increase in bus journeys in London—20 years ago one in five journeys were made by bus in London, and now it is almost two in five. London has been a rip-roaring success and the fantastic deregulation-world presented by the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet has been a total failure.

Stephen Hammond: For the sake of history and clarity, could the hon. Gentleman tell us the rate of decline between 1970 and 1985 and the rate of decline afterwards?

Norman Baker: I am happy to write to the hon. Gentleman about that. There has been a decline in both periods. However, the objective of deregulation, according to Nicholas Ridley, was to halt the decline, but it has not done so—the decline has got much worse over that period. That is not simply to do with the number of buses running and the passengers using them—there is also the cost aspect. Any analysis of the cost of travelling by bus shows that in recent years—I regret to say that it is also true under this Government—it has gone up significantly, while the cost of going by car has gone down. All the wrong signals are being sent. Since 1997, the cost of going by bus has gone up, in real terms, by 13 per cent. above inflation, while the cost of going by car has gone down by 10 per cent. We need to address that—or are we content that people who make green choices pay more than those who make un-green choices?

Stewart Jackson: The hon. Gentleman is delivering a masterclass in ideological myopia, which we are used to from the Liberal Democrats. He is surely being disingenuous in not seeing a causal link between bus usage and the demographic changes that have happened across this country over the past 20 years, particularly in respect of real incomes and car usage. This is not just an ideological political issue.

Norman Baker: Demographic changes have occurred in other countries as well. There are fantastic successes in bus usage in other European countries. As a matter of fact, demographic changes have occurred in Brighton and Hove, as the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet said, and we are seeing success there. Demographic changes have occurred in London, and there are increases in ridership there. The implication of the hon. Gentleman's intervention is that when people get rich, they stop using buses. That is not true at all—or at least it should not be. I can tell him that I certainly use buses, as are more and more people. He seems to be repeating Mrs. Thatcher's view that people who are successful do not use buses and people who do use buses are failures.

Stewart Jackson: That is a gross distortion of anything that Mrs. Thatcher ever allegedly said. I merely invited the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a great deal of respect, to comment on the fact that this is not solely an issue of dogma and political theory. It is not that rich people do not want to use buses but that people who have opportunities to use cars in their local neighbourhood and beyond will choose to do so if the bus service is not clean, efficient and priced correctly.

Norman Baker: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman's last point. We need to achieve a standard whereby buses are reliable, have a good regular services, are clean and reasonably cheap, and people feel safe using them. If we get all those things lined up together—as in most of London—we will find that people do use buses. Those are the key aims to hit, but that is not happening under the current system. The regulatory regime across the country is not delivering, except in sporadic locations. I am afraid that my own local authority in East Sussex has had a system of cutting bus support continually over 20 years. It has not been able to cross-subsidise unprofitable services from profitable services because that option was taken away in 1986, and the consequence has been that large numbers of my constituents are now without buses.

Paul Truswell: Is it not a simple fact that deregulation has failed even on its own narrow, dogmatic terms? In most areas, certainly in my own, services are usually provided by a monopoly provider, and when subsidised services are put out for tender, there tends to be just one bidder, so the notion in the Tory amendment about free competition nonsense in practice.

Norman Baker: I am afraid that it is, because that is exactly what does happen. It is sometimes even worse than that when the operator says that it wishes to withdraw from a subsidised service. In those circumstances, there is a tender process, the tender price has to increase, and the same operator then bids again and gets the contract. I do not wish to castigate all bus companies, but the fact is that some of them are making a great deal of money. Bus prices are going up and bus ridership is going down, and that is not a combination that I wish to see.

Andrew Gwynne: The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly good point. Am I correct that that could not happen in London because Transport for London has the regulatory powers to operate the network and it, not the bus operators, decides where the services should run?

Norman Baker: Yes. I would not want to say that Transport for London is perfect in all aspects, because it certainly is not, but there is a coherence to the London network that does not apply elsewhere. I have constituents who have got a job somewhere because there is an early-morning bus to get from their village to the nearest town, but the company running the service then notifies the traffic commissioner that it is going to withdraw the service. Where does that leave that person and their job? Such unpredictability means that people cannot rely on buses, which is why people who are failures, in Mrs. Thatcher's words, use buses. They have no alternative. I want buses to be the best they can be, which they are in many towns, so that we can get people using buses because they are good. Buses can be good, and can make a real contribution to our public transport system—far more so than at present. We need to move towards such a situation, and the loosening up of the regime for quality partnerships and contracts gets us some way towards it.
	I want to talk about the mixed picture in the country because the situation is not uniform. The London system works well, but there is a subsidy involved. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer); even before the Mayor's subsidy, there had been a stabilisation in ridership—the word we are expected to use this afternoon. Nevertheless, a heavy subsidy is involved, so that is a downside. In Brighton and Hove, Roger French is the managing director of a very good and innovative bus company that is not necessarily supported by the local authority. He certainly has not been supported in the way he ought to be by East Sussex county council.
	Other passenger transport executives and local authorities are forward looking—I include Manchester in that. Manchester PTE has a very forward-looking collection of people, who are not necessarily well served by the bus companies. I would categorise Norfolk Green, the Norfolk bus company, as a good one that has the support of the local authority. The patchwork arrangement throughout the country means things can be very different, meaning that different solutions are required for different areas. Deregulation was a mistake, but absolute re-regulation is not necessarily the right policy, given the position we are starting from and some of the successes in the country.
	The trick is to get more people on buses, which means hitting those targets to which I and the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) referred to a moment ago. Getting people on to buses would also help in dealing with climate change because that is better than having lots of different road vehicles all following each other.
	The key to the Bill, and its heart, is the relationship between the bus operator and the local public transport body. Getting that balance right is the difficult bit. I am not sure that the Government have got it right yet, but they have had a stab at it. We need to explore the matter in Committee to ensure that the balance is just right. We do not want to give bus operators too much power or we would have a continuation of bad practice, but we do not want to give local authorities too much power because they might eliminate—perhaps by default or by accident—some of the good practice that exists. Getting that balance right is the difficult part.
	The concept of having partnerships and contracts is right. The concept of cross-subsidy is right; we can now have socially provided services subsidised by profitable services. That is a good idea, and the fact that we lost that opportunity during the past 20 years is part of the problem, particularly in rural areas. We must not remove what works well, and we do not want successful routes diverted to serve odd roads because some constituents want those roads served; that would minimise the success of the main route bus service. We do not want the livelihood of small successful operators to be removed, which theoretically could happen under the quality contract regime. I have some sympathy for the Conservative position on that, if I understood it correctly.
	I referred to Norfolk Green earlier, and the Minister is familiar with its case. It has a well-patronised coastal route service between Fakenham and Norwich. It is a small company, which has established that route and patronage of it through its own efforts. It is possible, if a quality contract zone were established, that that route would be taken away from the company. The employees would be protected, thanks to amendments to the Bill passed in the Lords, but the company would not be. That is a genuine issue. We must ensure that individuals who have done well in a deregulated world and have provided a decent service do not lose out as a consequence of moves to make a more coherent stance in local government for bus contracts. We have to be careful how we frame the legislation.

Roberta Blackman-Woods: The hon. Gentleman makes a number of interesting points. Would he accept, however, that the Bill allows local authorities to introduce plans for their area that can include a combination of commercial routes, community transport and subsidised services? That should enable greater flexibility and, hopefully, a greater meeting of local needs as a result.

Norman Baker: I accept that the Bill does that, and that would be an ideal solution. Clearly, it is not in the interests of a local authority to run Norfolk Green or a similar company out of town. It ought to use such a company's expertise in part of the contract. Nor would it be sensible for the authority to put all of its eggs in one basket and have only one bus company for a big area, leaving it vulnerable the next time the contract is up for renewal. I think that the Minister made that point to me when we had a conversation about it. Nevertheless, the arrangements theoretically allow the Norfolk Greens of this world to lose business, and we have to be careful about that when framing the legislation.

Clive Betts: Can the hon. Gentleman be a bit more precise about what could be done to amend the Bill to cover that point? Surely it would not be possible to amend the Bill to allow a situation where such a small company could be protected and possibly compensated without opening the doorway to compensating Stagecoach, FirstGroup or other companies for routes that they may lose.

Norman Baker: That is a fair point and leads me to the approvals board and the arrangements that the Minister described in her opening comments. She made a sustainable case that there should be external validation of such contracts. That is right. If there were no external validation, I am persuaded that it would be easier for bus operators to take legal action, which would cost local authorities a lot of money, and the operators might be successful in that action. The idea of some sort of external validation is probably right. I do not like it much as a concept, but it is a logical step.
	To return to the intervention of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts), what sort of external validation process would pick up the points I have raised? How can we get a process that is legally sensible and protects local authorities without making it so cumbersome that the inadequacies of the Transport Act 2000, which the Minister recognised in her opening comments, are repeated? We do not want a system of hurdles that is merely a different set from the one in the 2000 Act. We want to ensure that this Bill achieves something. If we come back in five years' time with yet another Bill, we will have collectively failed.
	What balance should be struck? I am uncomfortable with the idea that there should be an approvals board and a referral to the transport tribunal—and, in theory, the High Court beyond that. There will be three levels of hurdles that can stop a local authority—which is democratically elected, after all—from pursuing a policy. It would be more sensible if there were an arrangement where the approvals board came up with a conclusion and made a recommendation to the PTE, so it could have the final say. Such a system would resemble what happens when the Environment Agency makes recommendations to a local council on flood defences. The planning authority still makes the final decision, but the Environment Agency makes the recommendation, and woe betide the local authority should it ignore it. Most local authorities will pay attention to such advice, but the elected members still have the final say. It would then be possible to have an appeal to the transport tribunal thereafter. One of the hurdles would be cut out.
	Alternatively, the approvals board could make the decision, as the Minister suggested, and the transport tribunal could be cut out with appeals going directly to the High Court. Either of those scenarios would ensure two hurdles rather than three. That would be more helpful in getting the balance right between local authority power and the operator's right to appeal. It would still have the proper right of appeal, and such a state of affairs would be legal-proof. I will be considering amendments along those lines in Committee and I hope that the Minister will sympathetically consider the points I raise.
	A number of objections have been made about the present arrangements by the Passenger Transport Executive Group, as the Minister will know. It makes the point that there are no limits on the grounds of appeal to the transport tribunal, and an appeal can be made by any consultee to the original quality contract application. That dangerous situation leaves the door wide open. We do not want a situation where local authorities face more risks, hurdles and delays.
	I am concerned that the traffic commissioners, good though they are at dealing with overweight lorries, do not yet have expertise in the area in question. There is a training function to deal with. They are being given substantial new powers that are important in the Bill, and I am not necessarily convinced—I mean no disrespect to the individuals concerned—that they have the necessary training to undertake such a role. We need to understand what the Government have in mind to ensure that the traffic commissioners are able to undertake the role allocated to them in the Bill.
	Secondly, the traffic commissioners say that they are underfunded and that there is not enough money for their current functions. If we load more functions on the traffic commissioners without allocating more funds to them, I fear that a lot of decisions will be made rather quickly and not very well, which would be in no one's interests. By the way, I would like to add in passing that it is good that we have an arrangement whereby traffic commissioners can deal with unsafe buses more robustly than previously.
	I do not have a problem with unelected persons being members of integrated transport authorities—I am old enough to think that ITA means "independent television authority"—but I feel strongly that it is inappropriate for them to have voting rights. By all means let us bring in expertise, but the danger of having unelected people with voting rights is that there will be a temptation for those who appoint them to load up the ITA with those sympathetic to their views. That might undermine a democratic local election result that had produced a majority for one party, which could be transformed by the appointment of unelected people of a different political persuasion. I therefore hope that unelected members will not have votes.
	I welcome the proposals on community transport, which both the Minister and the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet mentioned. It is sensible that we can have drivers who are paid when bigger vehicles are used. I also welcome the amendments in the Lords, which will enable passenger transport executives to provide vehicles to community transport operators. I am concerned about the bus users' arrangements, however. We need to make them more robust and ensure that they are more independent of bus operators and more accurately reflect bus passengers requirements than they appear to.
	Lastly, I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet on road pricing, just as I have listened with interest to Ministers on road pricing over the past few months. A variety of policies have emerged, none of which is particularly consistent with the others, so let me make plain where my colleagues and I stand on road pricing—we do not mind saying so. We think that the answer is a national road pricing scheme, which would give the necessary coherence to transport planning and would allow, for example, road tax to be abolished entirely, which cannot be done if we have only local schemes. We also think that a national scheme would enable us to price transport movements by carbon emission across the country. A national scheme would also be potentially much fairer—it would also be revenue-neutral, by the way—to those in rural areas, who currently pay far more for petrol than those in central London, which cannot be sensible.
	When the opportunity arises, therefore, we will be arguing for a national road pricing scheme, albeit probably not in this Bill, because it is outside its scope—at least I suspect that it will be, if I try to move amendments to that effect. In so far as we have local road pricing schemes, I welcome them. Local authorities should have the opportunity to innovate and experiment as they wish. I do not regard that as a restriction on local authorities, but a power for them to take forward if they choose to do so.
	My only hesitation, if I am honest, is that the Government are running a bit shy of road pricing. They are happy for local authorities to take a couple of hits and to see how schemes bed down, before they take forward a policy themselves. That is an abdication of the Government's responsibilities, so I was pleased that the Chancellor mentioned national road pricing in the Budget. We need to move towards that, both for the good use of the road network and for environmental reasons.
	The Conservatives are hostile towards road pricing, but perhaps they ought to talk to their friends in the CBI, which is quite in favour of road pricing when it talks to me, as are many environmental groups. Once again, I fear that the Conservatives are showing themselves to be completely out of touch with business, the environment and bus passengers, just as they have done throughout this Second Reading debate.
	I conclude by welcoming the Bill. We shall be moving amendments in Committee in respect of some of the issues that I have mentioned, but I assure the Minister that we, at least, shall approach the Bill in a constructive manner.

Angela Smith: I intend to be fairly brief, because I fully expected a 10-minute limit on speeches, given the importance of the debate. However, the lack of Opposition Members in the Chamber has given us an unexpected amount of time in which to make our speeches.
	Obviously I welcome the Bill. It represents a great opportunity to create the powers necessary to enable integrated transport authorities to put passengers first. The Bill is long overdue. For too long, many bus passengers outside London have suffered from unreliable services, reductions in services and, on occasion, even the withdrawal of services, all at the behest of the bus operators, who, as things stand, have to give only 56 days' notice before a service is withdrawn.
	Every three months in Sheffield and across South Yorkshire, services are withdrawn, changed or reduced. That can no longer continue. Where services to deprived or isolated areas have suffered, the passenger transport authority has had to plug the gap with publicly funded subsidies. However, other areas have not been so lucky, suffering from patchy provision that fails to meet the needs of local people. The statistics speak for themselves. In the major urban areas outside London, bus use has halved in the 20 years since bus services were deregulated. In the past year, the use of light rail services has increased by 9 per cent., but the use of bus services has increased by only 4 per cent. That is a welcome upturn, but in the context of increased usage of light rail and trams, bus services are still lagging behind.
	People are voting with their feet. In London, the use of bus services last year increased by 6 per cent., but outside London it increased by only 3 per cent. I would suggest that London has got something right—something that the rest of the country needs to follow. The Bill offers the metropolitan areas and every other area outside London the opportunity to catch up.
	Patchy service quality is evident throughout the country, with around 16 per cent. of all buses spot checked by the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency issued with prohibition notices. Nearly 12 per cent. of bus services by mileage have disappeared altogether in the metropolitan areas in the past eight years alone. We also have poorly co-ordinated services. One of the biggest complaints from my constituents is that buses, trams and trains in South Yorkshire are not integrated. There are examples of passengers boarding buses at stops near their homes, but having to get off and use services run by other operators and having to buy more tickets. That is crackers and, in the interests of the passenger, it must change.
	No wonder complaints about bus services form by far the largest part of my correspondence with my constituents. I have called a number of public meetings since I became an MP three years ago, including two public meetings over the withdrawal of bus services. With little notice and little effort, the rooms were packed with local people complaining about the withdrawal of services. Given South Yorkshire's past, it is no wonder that bus users in the area are so disgruntled. Most people who talk about the glory days of South Yorkshire transport refer to the cheap fares policy, with a 12p maximum fare for adults and a 2p fare for children. London is now emulating that, with its free bus rides for children, but those days have gone.
	One of the best aspects of the service in the '70s and '80s, which is often not remembered, is how well it worked in terms of routes and frequencies, how it got people to work and leisure activities, and how it got children to school. For instance, it was no problem getting from Rotherham, on one side of the Don valley, to Sheffield, on the other, by bus. Even on a Sunday, it was relatively easy to get a bus from one part of South Yorkshire to another. It was not difficult for pensioners to enjoy market days across South Yorkshire—Barnsley one day and Doncaster the next, as well as Sheffield, for its then renowned Castle and Sheaf markets.
	The ability to get around and make the best use of leisure and shopping services across the area is important to pensioners. However, pensioners in particular complain that their buses do not turn up. They complain of frequent changes to the routes that they use regularly. Indeed, not very long ago I was a local authority councillor in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts). Down in the south-east of Sheffield, the complaints were about the withdrawal of services and about services to local shops and hospitals not turning up. Now that I represent the north of Sheffield, I hear exactly the same complaints from constituents in High Green, Chapeltown and Ecclesfield.
	My constituents complain not just about being unable to get to Sheffield for work or Meadowhall for shopping, but about being unable to get to Barnsley. For those who live in the north of Sheffield, Barnsley is just as likely a destination for work or leisure as Sheffield city centre. The key point for most of my constituents is that their local bus service does not meet their needs, and does not connect them to essential services such as local hospitals and shops.
	Workers are also giving up using the bus to get to work. When the bus on which they rely fails to turn up not once, not twice but three times and more, making them late and embarrassed when they finally get to work, it is no wonder that they give up using the bus and take to their cars. If they cannot rely on the bus service to get them to work on time, of course they will turn to their cars. However, if they have no car because they cannot afford to buy or run one, what option do they have? Their employment and their relationship with their employer are put at risk. That is why the Bill is so important.
	I want to talk briefly about the quality of the experience. At long last, buses in Sheffield are improving, but for too long they were unacceptably old, unkempt and dirty. Too many of them are still inaccessible to the elderly, the disabled and women with young children in pushchairs. Indeed, many of my constituents still hold on to the romantic notion of a return to the old days of conductors on buses. Conductors were able to help people with heavy shopping or pushchairs to get on to the buses. Indeed, one of the reasons that the supertram service in Sheffield is so successful is that it has reintroduced conductors. The reintroduction of that service has made an unbelievable difference to the usage of that network.
	Bus drivers are often under intense pressure to deliver to timetable, with the consequence that journeys are often uncomfortable, with buses swinging round corners and moving off from bus stops before passengers have had a chance to sit themselves down. That point was made strongly by Help the Aged, and the problem could be resolved by quality contracts and quality partnerships, which would give local authorities some control over frequencies and routes.
	For all those reasons, the Bill is really welcome. The proposal to establish a new passenger watchdog has widespread support, but the work that it is expected to do will have to be fully funded if it is to be effective. The strengthening of the role of the traffic commissioner in enforcing better punctuality is also welcome. The suggested relaxation in the regulation of community transport provision is welcome, as that will incentivise greater use of the service. I am pleased that that subject has been mentioned today by every speaker so far, because I believe that community transport matters have been overlooked in the general debate so far. In the long term, they could prove to be one of the most effective means of connecting the elderly and people who live in hard-to-reach communities to mainstream transport services.
	An area in the north of Sheffield, Stocksbridge, is an incredibly hilly community, built on the steep sides of the Don valley. It is very difficult for the elderly people there to use the mainstream bus service, because they simply cannot get from the bus stops to their homes. The local community transport service, the Stocksbridge Flyer, has proved invaluable in providing a service to help the elderly and disabled people in Stocksbridge to get about and to get to the shops at least twice a week. I attended the anniversary of the establishment of the Stocksbridge Flyer last year, and I know just how valued that service is.
	The proposals to make quality partnerships and quality contracts easier to use look promising. At long last, a range of options is to be made available that will allow decisions to be made locally about how bus services should be delivered. I am frankly astonished that the Opposition should suggest that it is somehow wrong to give local authorities more power to decide how to run their bus services. I am astonished that the party that pretends to be in favour of the devolution of services has made a commitment in the Chamber today that it would revoke quality contracts and quality partnerships if it came to power. I am confident that, when my constituents hear the Tory views on re-regulation and on the proposals before us today, they will decide that the Tory party will not be the party of government for them when we get to the next general election.
	The Bill offers a promising way forward for local bus services, but that does not mean that it cannot be improved. It contains provisions that will require careful scrutiny and thorough discussion if we are to get the legislation that we know we need to transform our bus services. For example, quality partnerships are to be enhanced in order to allow the specification of timings, frequencies and maximum fares, which makes sense if local transport authorities are to invest in bus priority lanes and improve bus shelter provision. However, the Bill as it stands gives operators a wide-ranging right of objection to proposed timings, frequencies and maximum fares. This aspect of the Bill must be thoroughly aired in Committee because, while it is reasonable to assume that bus operators entering into quality partnerships will want to be assured that it is worth their while to do so, such concerns could be raised during the negotiation of the agreement itself. If a local transport authority proved to be intransigent in its approach, the bus operator could, and surely would, just walk away.
	Sheffield has initiated the one and only quality partnership in operation in this country, and the city fully supports the extension of partnership rights to cover timings, frequencies and fares. At the end of the day, if the right of objection in the Bill is intended to calm the nerves of the operators about the extension of partnership powers, that is surely not a sufficient reason for its inclusion in the Bill. I reiterate the key point that it is right that bus operators' expertise and concerns should be properly reflected in any partnership agreement, but that right does not need to be included in the Bill.
	I particularly welcome the measures on franchising. They will probably have the greatest application in the metropolitan areas, where quality contracts will be substantial enough to secure operator interest. Franchising offers a real opportunity to think through routes, frequencies and fares in a strategic manner, with the public interest at the heart of the process. It offers a real opportunity to put passengers first. However, the Bill proposes a process for securing franchising that could involve not only an approvals board—as the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) mentioned—but a transport tribunal. And, at the end of that process, there would still be the option of a legal challenge. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that that process appears cumbersome. Those of us who have waited so long for this legislation are feeling nervous that we might stall at one of these hurdles in the Bill, while we are in the process of putting the quality contracts in place.
	I entirely understand that the referral of a franchising application to an approvals board might well offer a degree of protection to integrated transport authorities against legal challenge by bus operators. I agree with the hon. Gentleman and the Minister on that point. We must be careful, however, not to compromise the right of local people to determine the shape of their services for themselves. As the Bill stands, there is a danger that that could happen. In other words, while it is probably helpful that the process of franchising be tested, especially in the context of a possible legal challenge, it is not helpful to include in the remit of the approvals board the decision to franchise. This is an important point on which I would appreciate clarification when the Minister winds up the debate. By all means, let us have an independent voice involved in the scrutiny of franchising agreements, to ensure that the interests of all parties involved have been met, as far as that is possible. At the end of the day, however, bus operators will continue to engage in the provision of services on a commercial basis, and that reality will have to be reconciled with the need to meet the interests of passengers.
	Let us not forget that bus operators will benefit from franchising. Long-term contracts will allow them to plan provision and rationalise costs. In return, therefore, they should recognise the need to shape services in a way that puts passengers first. It should be possible for franchising to reconcile the interests of all parties involved and the Bill needs to reflect that fact. I repeat, however, that it does not need legally to bind decisions to franchise to the approvals board.
	As the Minister mentioned earlier, in looking at proposals for quality contracts, the approvals board would make an interpretation of the term "public interest". What worries me—and I am sure, as the Minister should know, it worries many other Labour Members—is the degree of nervousness among us about how that term "public interest" will be interpreted by the approvals board. The Bill needs to be tightened up to ensure that we do not fall into the trap of using the interpretation of public interest views to turn down applications for quality contracts, which are demanded by the vast majority of passengers in areas like South Yorkshire, Greater Manchester, Tyneside and so forth—

Stephen Hesford: And Merseyside.

Angela Smith: And, of course, Merseyside.
	Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Bill offers a more rational approach to the delivery of bus services. It offers potential social and economic benefits to areas like South Yorkshire, which needs to improve its transport provision if it is to develop economically. Although provisions for road pricing, which I support, are in the Bill, it sensibly refrains from forcing those provisions on localities.
	I have to say once again that I was dumbfounded by the earlier comments of the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers), which seemed to suggest that we were talking about national road pricing by the back door. If we are in favour of devolving power, surely we should all support giving local authorities or integrated transport authorities the right to introduce road pricing, particularly if road pricing is right in itself. Road pricing may be required in any case, as and when congestion acts increasingly as a brake on economic development, which is why the CBI supports the Bill.
	In Sheffield, there is only 15 per cent. capacity left on our roads. At some point, road pricing will have to be seriously discussed, but I agree with the CBI that it should be introduced only in the context of an adequate public transport infrastructure—a critical point. That is why the introduction of road pricing measures has to be voluntary; it has to be down to local authorities to decide when to do it. As far as South Yorkshire is concerned, better buses, integrated with local tram and train networks, provide the right context for road pricing, but the carrot should not precede the stick—and I am sure that that will apply across the country.
	I support the Bill, despite its few shortcomings, and hope that it comes back to us on Report and Third Reading as an even better Bill than it is now.

Greg Knight: The debate has been interesting so far, but I do not buy the synthetic surprise of either the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Doncaster, Central (Ms Winterton), or the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), who made a big thing of expressing amazement that the Conservative party intends to vote against the Bill. The Bill is something of a curate's egg in that, irrespective of what view one takes, the proposals are not entirely satisfactory. We have heard that from the mouth of the hon. Member for Lewes himself and indeed from that of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith). They are clearly not entirely happy with the Bill as it stands. Surely if it is perfectly legitimate to vote for the Bill and seek to amend it in Committee, which is the Liberal Democrat position, it is perfectly legitimate for the Conservatives to say that they do not like the Bill and want it taken away in favour of something else. That is the essence of the Opposition's reasoned amendment.

Stephen Hesford: If I understand the right hon. Gentleman correctly from his intervention, his main interest is in road pricing. Are he and the Conservative party being straight with the House on that matter? Is their objection to road pricing an "in principle" or ideological objection to what he terms "stealth taxes"?

Greg Knight: I hope that I am always straight with the House. I oppose road pricing, but my opposition is not necessarily one that cannot be overcome. I shall explain that more fully in my remarks, if I may. The point I was making earlier is that it is quite legitimate to say that the Bill has some good parts, but that we do not want to support it. I know what would happen if the Conservative party did not oppose the Bill. If road pricing ran into serious trouble further down the line and became hugely unpopular, both the Minister and the hon. Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) would say, "Well, the Conservative party did not oppose it", so I believe we are right to oppose the Bill at this stage.
	I suppose I should start by declaring an interest as a motorist and as the owner of a number of motor vehicles, although I have to say that I currently do not own a bus. The Greater London Authority Act 1999 and the Transport Act 2000 established the legal framework for local road pricing schemes in England and Wales. Those two Acts provide the basis of the existing schemes in London and Durham. The crucial change in the Bill for local road pricing is the removal of the requirement to get the Secretary of State's approval before introducing such a scheme.
	In the draft Bill, the Government set out the case for that change, saying:
	"Removing Ministers from the decision-making process would make clear that local areas are themselves responsible for decisions on local schemes".
	That is what we were told, but it seems to many of us that that device is simply a way of moving responsibility for a potentially unpopular policy from the Government and on to local politicians.
	I notice that the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) is not in her place and I have heard a rumour that she is poorly. I am sure that the whole House will join me in wishing her a speedy recovery to robust rude health. During the Transport Committee's work on the draft Bill, it heard evidence from motoring organisations that opposed the move to introduce local road pricing schemes. The main area of concern of those motoring groups was what they view as the lack of proper consultation before such schemes can be implemented.
	The Association of British Drivers said that
	"there is to be less democratic control over charging. The Minister is giving up the power to require that there is public consultation, and charging authorities will no longer need approval of the Minister before introducing a charging scheme. The Bill seems to make it even easier for authorities to implement anti-car measures. There is no requirement for a referendum on road pricing/congestion charging. People must be given the chance to vote on road pricing/congestion charging. The main thrust seems to be to try and force people to use the bus regardless of whether or not it is appropriate or practical".
	I totally agree with that assessment.
	Back in 2004, the Government commissioned a feasibility study of road pricing in the UK, which concluded that, with technological improvements, a national road pricing scheme could be feasible within 10 to 15 years. The study also concluded that a national road pricing scheme could, if properly implemented, reduce congestion by up to half the estimated levels in 2020. However, against that background, as I mentioned in an intervention on the Minister, the Labour party's 2005 election manifesto stated:
	"Because of the long-term nature of transport planning, we will seek political consensus in tackling congestion, including examining the potential of moving away from the current system of motoring taxation towards a national system of road-pricing."
	The pledge was quite clear: if we were going to have road pricing, motoring taxes would be reduced or cut elsewhere. I think that most of us would be willing to consider a road pricing scheme if that pledge was kept, but the Bill does no such thing. It seeks to introduce local road pricing without any commitment to reduce motorists' taxes elsewhere. In 2006, the then Transport Secretary, now Secretary of State for International Development, said that the Local Transport Bill would
	"help to pave the way for a national road-pricing scheme in the medium to long term".
	He made it clear that he saw the Bill as a test bed for a national scheme. In February last year, however, an e-petition appeared on the Downing street website calling for the scrapping of the Government's plans—I think it still holds the record for the number of signatures on any petition, at more than 1.7 million. The Minister of State said that she was happy to talk to passengers, and that it was clear what they wanted. She also ought to listen to motorists, because it is clear that they do not want another stealth tax, which is how they regard national road pricing, given the lack of a concrete commitment by the Government to abolish or reduce taxes elsewhere.

Norman Baker: The right hon. Gentleman is making a sensible contribution. Does he agree that the Government failed to get the message across? Had they presented national road pricing as a revenue-neutral arrangement, in the context of other road taxes being reduced, they might have had a different response.

Greg Knight: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The Government should also have made more of their pledge to seek consensus by opening up discussions with all the major political parties before bringing forward a scheme.
	In the immediate aftermath of the petition, the Government announced an abandonment of the proposals. A few months later, abandonment changed to distancing themselves from road pricing. They stated:
	"It is not the department's intention, at this stage, to take the separate powers needed to price the national road network...We agree that there are congestion problems on parts of the strategic road network, but 88 per cent. of congestion is in urban areas. Therefore it is sensible to prioritise the assessment of road pricing in those areas."
	Asked to comment on where that left the national road pricing policy, the Transport Secretary said:
	"The debate about national road pricing has become increasingly sterile".—[ Official Report, 4 March 2008; Vol. 472, c. 1589.]
	We heard nothing more about the matter until the Budget earlier this month, when the Chancellor put it firmly back on the agenda and announced funding for pilot scheme projects to develop road pricing technology.
	The Government have continually stressed that if they choose to introduce a national road pricing scheme, they will have to introduce a separate piece of primary legislation. So why are they bothering with the local schemes in this Bill? If they want road pricing, they should bring forward a national scheme and engage in a national debate on the issue, not bring forward such piecemeal local proposals. I have concerns that the Government intend to use such local schemes to test public opposition to road pricing.
	The Transport Committee has rightly criticised the Government for forcing councils to adopt local road pricing:
	"In the face of severe funding pressure we do not accept that Congestion Transport Innovation Fund guidance should, in effect, restrict the availability of funds for much needed improvements in transport infrastructure to only those authorities that will consider local road pricing schemes. This risks blackmailing local authorities to conduct road pricing trials on behalf of Government in advance of a possible national scheme."
	That is the answer to the question asked by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough—it will not be a genuine choice. Blackmailing local authorities is not a new phenomenon for the Government—the Department for Transport is already doing it.
	My local authority, the East Riding of Yorkshire council, is excellent. Ministers have admitted that it has been excellent in many areas in comments made not only in this Chamber but in Westminster Hall. Recently, it wished to introduce some traffic management improvement schemes for the town of Bridlington. The Government agreed to provide funds only if it included a park-and-ride scheme. Blackmail was used to force the local authority, against the wishes of the local population, to include a park-and-ride scheme for the town. In case the Minister of State does not know, Bridlington is a seaside town and tourist resort. I have yet to hear of any family with young children, with buckets and spades and lilos, who wish to get to the beach using a park-and-ride scheme. Bridlington needs not a park-and-ride scheme but an inner-town multi-storey car park. However, it has been forced to adopt the park-and-ride scheme because of arm twisting by the Minister and her Department.
	The same thing happened in Birmingham. When the city council decided to remove some unpopular bus lanes, which were causing congestion, the then Transport Secretary, now the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in my hearing threatened to remove funding from Birmingham unless it reinstated the bus lanes. I say to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough that the Department for Transport is already blackmailing—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am aware that the right hon. Gentleman is not referring to anyone in particular, but I am not too happy about the use of the word "blackmail".

Greg Knight: Let us say "under coercion"—the Department for Transport, no doubt with the approval of Ministers, is telling local authorities that they cannot exercise their free local decision-making process. If they want Government funding, they must make certain decisions.
	Although the Bill sounds innocuous enough, it will be a coercion tool to force local authorities, against their better judgment, to introduce road pricing. They will be told that unless they comply they will not receive money. They will be told to comply as a way of dealing with underfunding from central Government. All that is from a Government who have made great play of connecting politicians and Parliament with the people. The claim that people are somehow distant from politicians when they should not be seems hollow when the Government pursue if not blackmail, then coercion policies against local authorities.
	Why is there no prerequisite for widespread and proper consultation? What is wrong with testing local opinion and then listening to it? The removal of the Secretary of State's approval for local schemes is an attempt to distance the Government from potentially controversial decisions, while forcing local authorities to gauge the acceptability of charging schemes. As the hon. Member for Lewes said, that is hardly leading from the front.
	The use of the transport innovation fund to coerce local authorities to adopt road pricing schemes demonstrates that the Government do not believe in genuine devolution. The removal of the absolute requirement to consult the public before introducing a scheme, as the Bill proposes, is totally unacceptable.

Andrew Gwynne: The right hon. Gentleman is making an interesting case, but can he outline precisely what coercion the Conservative opposition group on Tameside council was under when, in the only debate that has taken place, it voted in favour, in a named vote, of the Greater Manchester transport innovation fund bid?

Greg Knight: This might surprise the hon. Gentleman, but I am not privy to the policy group meetings of Tameside council Conservative group. I will make inquiries and get back to him on the matter.
	As the hon. Member for Lewes has acknowledged, polling shows that the primary concern of British motorists is the cost of motoring. The public will not support a scheme, local or otherwise, that seeks to increase significantly the cost of motoring. Will the Minister tell us the status of the 2005 Labour manifesto pledge that promised to move away—move away—from the current motoring taxation system and towards a national road pricing system? Like the manifesto pledge to hold a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, it seems to have been ditched.
	If road pricing schemes are implemented, many of us have genuine concerns about those who live in rural areas. How will they be affected as they go about their business? Evidence shows that residents of rural villages travel nearly twice as far by car as their urban counterparts. Although many in rural areas do not have personal access to a car, many of them seek to obtain a lift to and from town centres by asking friends to take them in their motor vehicle. Road charging schemes in rural areas could have a severe downside in terms of social effects unless other motoring taxes are reduced concurrently with the introduction of such a scheme.
	It is already hard for deprived rural people to get a full range of services in their local market town. Many of them have to travel further afield to the bigger cities. There is rarely a suitable bus service in many villages and a car is often the only possible solution. A badly thought out charging scheme could have a devastating effect on those communities, and now without their having any say in the matter.
	Although there are no specific proposals yet for a national road pricing scheme, one concern that many people in rural areas have expressed is that if it were introduced even on a local basis, it could encourage motorists to divert on to adjacent rural roads that are not designed to carry a high volume of traffic. That could add to road safety concerns.
	The RAC Foundation for Motoring has also expressed its concern. It said:
	"It is clear from research we have commissioned as well as from other sources such as the No 10 e-petition that there is widespread opposition to road pricing. In the light of this we are concerned at the proposal that the requirement in the Transport Act 2000 that promoters of the schemes consult all interested parties is to be dropped. We recognise that the associated guidance recommends consultation but remain concerned that the importance of comprehensive consultation is in effect downgraded by the change. We would press that the statutory requirement to consult be retained."
	Why has the Minister not listened to that quite sensible request and allowed the statutory requirement to consult to be retained? The Association of British Drivers said:
	"The main change is that there is less democratic control over charging. The Minister is giving up the power to require that there is public consultation, and charging authorities will no longer need approval of the Minister before introducing a charging scheme. This bill seems to make it even easier for local authorities to implement anti-car measures"—
	I have quoted some of that already.
	The Bill would also allow the Welsh Assembly to make its own legislation on the making, operating and enforcing of charging schemes in respect of trunk roads in Wales. Trunk roads comprise the network of strategic through routes that are managed by Welsh Ministers. Obviously, it would be for the Welsh Assembly to consider whether, and if so how, it would be appropriate to exercise those powers. However, as I think the Minister acknowledged in response to my intervention, how can such a scheme be introduced in Wales which conforms to Labour's 2005 election manifesto pledge to move
	"away from the current system of motoring taxation towards...road-pricing"?
	If the Welsh Assembly decides to implement road charging on all trunk roads in Wales, will vehicle excise duty be reduced for Welsh drivers? I doubt it. Will fuel duty be reduced for those motorists who fill up in Wales? I doubt it. I do not see how it would be possible to introduce such a scheme.

Elfyn Llwyd: With great respect, the answer is in the Bill. It says that any income thereby derived would be hypothecated for transport.

Greg Knight: No, that does not answer the question. The hon. Gentleman has missed the point completely. The cost to the motorist would be higher. It may well be that the money raised would go on making local transport improvements, but in addition to paying fuel duty of 60 or 65 per cent., vehicle excise duty and for any permit for parking his vehicle, the motorist travelling through Wales would have to pay for using the trunk roads. That does not comply with Labour's 2005 manifesto promise to move
	"away from the current system of motoring taxation".
	It would be an additional tax wherever the money was spent, whatever it was spent on. If the Welsh Assembly is misguided enough to introduce such a proposal, my message to all holidaymakers is, "Forget Wales; come to East Yorkshire and enjoy Bridlington, even if you don't use the park-and-ride scheme that is being foisted on it."
	I was asked whether I was against a national road pricing scheme in principle: would I object to any national road pricing scheme? The answer is no. Any politician who is serious and wants to be constructive in this place should be open to argument, even if the argument is for a proposition that initially he is minded not to support. I would be happy to review the terms of a national road pricing scheme because it might have merits.
	The other day I came across a speech by the Minister of Transport speaking in the House on 2 December 1920 when he was introducing vehicle excise duty. The argument Sir Eric Geddes adduced for introducing vehicle excise duty was that
	"the whole essence of the new taxation is that it shall be one tax, and that all the other taxes shall be merged in it or otherwise wiped out."
	Referring to the motorist, he said that
	"his payments will be in one tax, without irritating additions."—[ Official Report, 2 December 1920; Vol. 135, c. 1489.]
	Does that not hold true today? If there was a national road pricing scheme and it was the only fee that a motorist had to pay—if vehicle excise duty were abolished and the duty on fuel largely abolished—it might be acceptable, provided that there were exemptions for the disabled and other groups, and provided also that there were times of the day when the fee paid was less, perhaps even zero. If that were the scheme, it could make better use of our road space. A zero rating during non-rush hour periods would encourage motorists whose journey was not time-sensitive to drive outside usual motoring hours, thereby freeing up road space for those who were obliged to travel during the busiest time of the day.

Norman Baker: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that such a scheme could also be devised to take account of the cleanliness or otherwise of vehicles in terms of carbon emissions?

Greg Knight: It could do to a point. There is a difficulty the further back we go. I think that before 2001, manufacturers did not reveal what the emissions of the vehicles they manufactured amounted to. If we go back even further, to historic vehicles, there is no way of measuring their output unless they are brought into a testing station. I do not think we would want to go there for the gain that we would get. We could, if we wished, differentiate the charge for those vehicles if we had a rule that linked the scheme from the time when manufacturers made the information public. I am not convinced that I would want to support such a scheme, but it could be done.
	A national scheme in the form of one tax replacing all others would have some attraction. I have not set my judgment in stone against supporting such a scheme. I would like to see the proposals first, but it might benefit many motorists. Certainly, it would be more logical than the London congestion charge scheme, which was introduced by a Mayor at the same as he phased out double-decker buses and introduced buses that take up double the road space. If the Mayor is against congestion, why on earth is he doubling the space occupied by buses?
	I have a couple of specific questions for the Minister. The first concerns clause 50, which applies the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and is entitled "Carrying of passengers in wheelchairs in vehicles providing local services". Admittedly this is a fairly small point, and I do not want to suggest that too much hinges on it.
	Many tourist areas, such as the one that I represent, use historic vehicles to transport the public because they increase tourist interest. I believe that the local authority area represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Goodwill), who is not in the Chamber at present, is the only one in the country to use a Sentinel steam bus to carry passengers. Part of the attraction and appeal of a historic vehicle is its period authenticity. Will such vehicles be exempt from the requirement for alterations enabling them to accommodate wheelchairs, which might completely destroy their character? I should not have thought that there were more than 20 in the country, but where they are used they are valued by the public, and I think disabled people accept that they are vehicles from a bygone age when their interests were not properly considered. I am certainly not aware that any disabled group in my constituency has campaigned for the right to board one of those historic vehicles with a wheelchair.
	My second question concerns clause 120, which relates to foreign-registered vehicles. According to the explanatory notes that the Minister has kindly published to accompany the Bill, one of the purposes of requiring information about them is
	"to promote compliance with test certificates under section 47 or 53 of the Road Traffic Act 1988".
	I am a little puzzled about why a foreign-registered vehicle need comply with a British Road Traffic Act if it has a valid test certificate issued in the country where the driver lives and the vehicle is registered. Surely if a Spanish tourist, for instance, visits the United Kingdom for a holiday with a Spanish-registered car that has been tested in accordance with the rules in Spain, a fellow European Union country, he need not take any further measures in order to drive his vehicle on our roads.
	I do not think that Conservative Front Benchers need apologise for deciding to vote against the Bill. There are some good bits in it, but in the main it represents a missed opportunity. I should have liked it to contain, for example, a moratorium on the construction of speed humps, which are a complete menace. They increase pollution in the form of both airborne particles and noise. We now have far more effective LED-operated flashing signs, and I think local authorities should be told to introduce more of those and stop constructing speed humps.
	The Bill could have been used to trial a number of innovations apart from road charging. It could have provided for motorists to be allowed to turn left at a red light, as they are allowed to in America—although because Americans drive on the other side of the road, they turn right at red lights. It could have provided for trials of traffic lights during non-busy periods being switched to amber in all directions to allow motorists to cross junctions with care. It could have provided for more use of flexible speed limits. Why should a 20-mph limit outside a school continue to be enforced when the school is on holiday, rather than being changed back to 30 mph? I understand that regulations introduced by the Minister's Department allow that to happen only if the sign is electronic, and that because electronic signs cost more, most local authorities retain the 20-mph limit when schools are not open because it is cheaper to do so.
	There should be financial assessments of park-and-ride schemes so that we can find out how much they are costing local authorities—which would probably mean the cancellation of the scheme in Bridlington, for instance. There should also be speed-limit audits, and speed camera partnerships should be abolished. All those provisions would have been welcome.

Christopher Chope: Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Greg Knight: I am nearing the end of my speech, but with some reluctance I will give way.

Christopher Chope: Would my right hon. Friend also have welcomed the restoration of the national 85th percentile in relation to the establishment of 30-mph and other speed limits?

Greg Knight: I certainly think that that should be debated, and we may be given an opportunity to do so if the Bill is given a Committee stage—although I regret to say that owing to his elevated position on the Chairmen's Panel, my hon. Friend will not be able to serve on the Committee. That will be the House's loss.
	This is a curate's egg of a Bill. It is bad in parts. We should therefore not swallow it whole, as my hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers) says in her amendment. We should say to the Government "Take it away, and give us something else."

Graham Stringer: The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) did an extremely good and lengthy job of obscuring the lack of Conservative interest in this important Bill.

Christopher Chope: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Graham Stringer: It is very early in my speech for me to give way, but I will do so.

Christopher Chope: Might not the lack of interest to which the hon. Gentleman has referred be due to the fact that so many Conservative Members are interested in listening to the President of France, who is giving an address elsewhere in the Palace?

Graham Stringer: That may well be the case, but it may also be due to the fact that Conservative Members have a long and undistinguished record of being uninterested in bus services.
	The fundamental point made by the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire about the Opposition's right to oppose is clearly right, and I do not blame the Conservatives for that. What raised eyebrows and prompted comments from Labour Members were the terms in which the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers) opposed the Bill. According to the amendment, the Conservatives oppose it
	"because it encourages the introduction of Quality Contract schemes to reregulate bus networks".
	Surprisingly, however, the hon. Lady proceeded to say how jolly good what are, in effect, compulsory quality contracts in London were.

Theresa Villiers: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Graham Stringer: I should be delighted to allow the hon. Lady to dig a deeper ditch for herself.

Theresa Villiers: Throughout my speech, when challenged on this point—as I was on a number of occasions—I made it clear that in my view a range of factors were at work in relation to increasing bus ridership in London which had nothing to do with the regulatory structure and operation in the capital.

Graham Stringer: The hon. Lady fails to recognise that when factors such as subsidy and density of population are disaggregated, all the indications are that regulation in London has led to a better transport system and more passengers than can be found elsewhere in the country. What she fails to understand, and what I think every Labour Member does understand, is that with the good investment, good subsidy and real political leadership from which London has benefited, a regulated transport system will be a good system.
	The hon. Lady also failed to explain why, given a system that works in London on those grounds—she did not attempt to specify which of them should be removed—we should have two systems in England as a whole. She did not explain why England should have such an apartheid system of transport, whereby London gets political leadership because it has an elected body, so it gets subsidy and regulation, and therefore a better transport system. Those are the horns of the dilemma on which the hon. Lady was caught—and I must say that over the years I have seen one or two of my Front-Bench colleagues caught on the same horns and have similar problems in respect of why there are two different systems in the country.
	To understand why there are two different systems, we have to go back just over 20 years to when the then Conservative Government and Prime Minister launched a huge political onslaught on local democracy and local services. It went wider than transport, but for the purposes of this debate we should note that six metropolitan counties and the Greater London council were abolished, and we got a deregulated system. Although the Bill can be improved, one reason why I welcome it is that it attempts to deal with both sides of the problem—with the problems caused by deregulation and with those caused by the abolition of the metropolitan counties.

Stewart Jackson: The hon. Gentleman seems to be stuck in a time warp. He is a Labour Member with a Labour-controlled city council in a disproportionately Labour area, and we have a Labour Government. After 11 years of that Government, who does he think is responsible for the lack of authority and autonomy in transport policy, and the discrepancy between Greater London and the area he represents? How can that be the fault of the Opposition?

Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman thinks he has made a clever intervention, but it is clear that the Conservative Government put us in the situation in which we find ourselves now. If he had listened to me—and some other Labour Members—he would have heard that we have been less than satisfied with the progress that our Government have made in reversing certain measures. My Front-Bench colleagues have heard from me at length both in private and in public on these matters.

Paul Truswell: Is not the attitude espoused by the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) typical of his party, in that it acts as an arsonist and then accuses the fire brigade of not putting the blaze out quickly enough?

Graham Stringer: My hon. Friend makes an acute observation about how the Conservatives behave.
	What happened when those counties were abolished? The links between local democracy, local choice, local taxation and control of local bus services were broken. They were broken on the basis that although the people involved—Nicholas Ridley, who was Secretary of State, and some officials and outside advisers—did not know what would happen when deregulation of bus services was introduced, they believed that private, commercially operated bus companies would respond to the requirements of the travelling public by providing a better service. Indeed, in a small number of cases services did improve, but in the vast majority of cases they declined. We have already heard of the statistics, such as doubled bus fares, half the passenger numbers and reduced mileage, and they are well known in respect of areas outside London. What is less often expressed about the experience is that the bus companies did not respond as flexible, competing businesses serving the travelling public, but instead they became subsidy junkies. They responded to the amount of subsidy that was available, and they catered their services not for the travelling public, but for how much grant they could get. The Brian Souters of this world—he is from Stagecoach—go around saying how good they are at providing a service, but in fact they are always asking for huge subsidies.
	Unless hon. Members know of the parliamentary question I asked last week, I would be surprised if they are aware that the Government believe that the subsidy outside the London area in the deregulated system is £3,500 per year per bus. The PTE group believes that for tendered services the subsidy per bus per year is £53,500—£1,000 per week per bus travelling in the system outside London. That is incredible. When there was local democracy, local taxation and control of services, for that amount of money we would have expected to be able to say what would be the frequency of service and where the buses went. Of course, that sum does not include investment in bus lanes and bus shelters and other parts of the transport infrastructure, which the Brian Souters of this world are always asking for while forgetting that they are being hugely subsidised. As a percentage of their overall businesses, they make more money and get a better return on their investment—although their buses are older—in the deregulated area than in other parts of the system. Overall, the bus industry is left with fewer passengers and we have twice the average bus fare of France, Germany and elsewhere in the EU before its recent enlargement. Therefore it is unsurprising if there has been a decline in bus fares.
	Let me swiftly address the proposals, and some of the problems that I envisage and that I hope can be dealt with in Committee. I welcome the fact that the Government will leave the creation of integrated transport authorities up to local initiative; it will be for a local passenger transport authority to come forward and say, "We have a better scheme." What lies behind that is the belief, for which there is supporting evidence, that if we transfer highways powers to a transport authority, and the transport authority can put in bus lanes and change traffic management orders for the whole of an urban conurbation, there is likely to be increased usage of buses and more bus priority measures.
	It is understood that that is what is behind this proposal, but I have concerns about the process by which we get there, and at what levels Members and the electorate will be involved. On the process, in terms of addressing a medium-sized local government reorganisation—in the case of Greater Manchester it would involve 11 authorities and a number of functions—how adequate would the affirmative procedure and a one-and-a-half hour debate on the Floor of the House be? That does not seem adequate; we do not normally deal with local government reorganisation in that way.
	I would not go the whole hog by saying that we should have primary legislation to make such changes, but I ask my Front-Bench colleagues seriously to consider making them by a regulatory reform order. Such an order would, as part of its nature, give people directly affected by the scheme the right to make direct representations to the appropriate Committee of this House. If that Committee thought the matter controversial or worthy of a debate, it could ensure that a three-hour debate took place on the Floor of the House. Anybody who witnessed what happened recently in Cheshire over the creation of two authorities will know that the reorganisation of functions and powers of local authorities is controversial, and that hon. Members and the public have views on such things.
	That is the position as far as the House changing the law and the powers of local authorities is concerned, but what about the people? Although the concern of transport Bills and the Transport Committee is to improve transport, there are competing issues as to whether an area has bus lanes or not. The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire mentioned the appropriate example of the debate in Birmingham about bus lanes. We would be saying to the local electorate that they can no longer vote directly for the person who will makes choices on those functions. One obvious solution is to have a directly elected transport body, some other form of election or a serious form of consultation before those decisions are made. In terms of filling the gap left following the abolition of the Greater Manchester authority and the other metropolitan authorities, the Bill is democratically inadequate; there is a democratic deficit in dealing with those matters.
	I come to local authorities, because if those powers are transferred, this will not be just about the electorate. Bury metropolitan borough council or Trafford council, which oppose a congestion charge in Greater Manchester, can say individually, "We are a unitary local authority. We do not have to agree with what everybody else says. These are our highways. We are not going ahead with it." If the powers are transferred by a simple process in the Bill, both Bury metropolitan borough council and the Bury electorate would have no direct say in what is happening. The case needs to be thought through a great deal more than it has been.

Greg Knight: In the light of the hon. Gentleman's assessment of the Bill, does he intend to vote against it?

Graham Stringer: No, I intend to vote for the Bill, because as I said in my opening remarks, it contains many good things and it is moving in the right direction. However, I hope that by argument and discussion in Committee we can improve it by the time it comes back to the Floor of the House on Report and on Third Reading. I take the exact opposite view to that of the right hon. Gentleman, but that is not surprising, because he is in opposition and we are in government.

Paul Rowen: I have listened to what the hon. Gentleman said, and I am grateful for what he has done. Does he not accept that Bury will have representation on the local transport authority and will therefore be able to argue its case? It is not that the views of Bury will not be listened to, but it will have to take its chance, along with everybody else, in terms of developing an integrated transport policy.

Graham Stringer: I accept the point that the hon. Gentleman makes. Of course, Bury would have representation and would be able to make its case. The difference would be, first, that its electorate would be excluded. Secondly, whereas Bury currently has a veto—it can say no—it could in future be oppressed by a majority of nine to one. Such oppression could happen in other ways. At some time in the future the political complexion might mean that the inner authorities are in a minority compared with the outer authorities—that has not happened for a long time, but it has happened—and I would not want Manchester or Salford oppressed in that way.
	What is behind these proposals is the fact that the Government are keen to try out congestion charging in Manchester—again, the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire touched on this issue. The chairperson of the passenger transport authority has referred to the pressure put on it as the Government blackmailing it into having a congestion charging scheme, and I just want to say two or three things about that long debate, which it is part of this discussion, although not the main part. The reason why that is happening is that Manchester wanted to extend its tram system. We have got £500 million towards a £1.5 billion tram scheme and the Government have said, "If you want the extra £1 billion and, incidentally, some more for buses and trains, you will, in practice, have to have a congestion charge."
	I do not think that that is fair when one looks at the investment that is being made in London. The case for investing in the tram and train systems in Greater Manchester stands on its own, and a separate case would have to be made for introducing a congestion charge. Surprisingly, the figures produced by the urban traffic control unit in Manchester show that congestion in 11 of the 14 centres of Greater Manchester has fallen since 2001. I suspect that that is mainly because of the opening of the M60. The number of journeys into that area has also fallen, and the Government statistics on speed in those areas show that, with some exceptions, traffic is speeding up.
	So congestion is not getting worse. In fact, the Government have agreed with Greater Manchester authorities in a public service agreement that congestion will not increase by 2012 and, on that basis, have agreed to invest in a new traffic-light system. In the foreseeable future, there is no prediction that congestion will increase, and the Government's figures—I am grateful to Ministers for written answers on the issue—assume that the price of oil will fall to $50 a barrel. That is highly unlikely to happen, so the case for congestion charging in Greater Manchester has not been made.
	Congestion charging is not an experiment that can be introduced and then removed. It is an investment for 30 years, and on the basis of what we know about traffic, the case has not been made. However, we do need investment in public transport.

Stewart Jackson: I find myself agreeing with the hon. Gentleman, because he is making a plausible and persuasive case for local autonomy and for decision making in transport and other areas to be devolved as far down as possible. Is the conclusion of his argument that there should be a disentanglement between financial inducements that have been offered to local authorities, such as has been offered in Cambridgeshire to introduce congestion charging in Cambridge, and bespoke, discrete transport schemes? If that is his argument, I would probably agree with him.

Graham Stringer: This is worrying progress that we are making. If the hon. Gentleman reads the Transport Committee's report on local transport plans, he will see that we found a lot of evidence—it is similar to the evidence that the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire found—of unnecessary interference from the centre. I am strongly in favour of local democracy and having the right to tax locally and take decisions locally in line with what is appropriate for local areas. That principle is behind much of what I am saying. I am not against congestion charging in principle, either locally or nationally, but it has to be appropriate to the area and not introduced because the Government are pressing for it.
	In five or six years of my asking, no Minister has answered my question to my satisfaction. Although I accept that London is a special case that has historically had investment in transport of 80 per cent. more per capita than the English regions, I have tried to find out why that 80 per cent. difference has gone up to 150 per cent. difference. There has been no answer to that question. At the same time as we in Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool and Southampton are desperate for investment in tram systems, the investment in London is increasing and much of it, such as the £2 billion spent on the Metronet fiasco, is being wasted. That money could have bought us tram sets in at least three major urban conurbations.
	I want to finish with two points. First, I thank the Minister for allowing me time and access to the Bill team. I had a long discussion with her and the Bill team about quality partnership schemes. I do not have time to go into the detail, but at the end of that discussion I was convinced that quality partnerships would not work. Let us start to think about what a quality partnership is: frequencies, fares and timing are controlled in the partnership but there is access for others. It will be extremely difficult to get an agreement between the bus companies and the authorities about who will run the prime service at 8.30 or 9 in the morning—the most profitable routes. Anyone who is running a bus service will want to run those routes, not the 11.30 off-peak route.
	Let us consider how access is organised. I understand, although I do not have quite enough interest to read it all, that the Minister has issued 70 pages of guidance on how to deal with that. That shows that quality partnerships— [ Interruption. ] I am happy to give way to the Minister, if she wants. She was just agreeing with me, I think.

Paul Rowen: On quality partnerships, does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the Government have made two stabs through previous legislation at making quality partnerships work? They have not worked. Does he not agree that the complicated procedures in the Bill are likely to have the same result?

Graham Stringer: Yes, I do. That is the point that I am coming to. It will be difficult to make quality partnerships work because of access to the routes. Integrated transport authorities and passenger transport authorities will have to grasp the nettle and bring in quality contracts.

Rosie Winterton: I just want a bit of clarification. As I said in my speech, the important thing about the Bill is that it allows registration restrictions so that if someone else tries to get access to the route and that undermines the partnership, the traffic commissioners have the power not to allow them to run along that route. I do not quite understand my hon. Friend's point that others would still be allowed to run along it and that the quality partnership would therefore not work.

Graham Stringer: As I understand it, the registration restrictions are part of the answer to the problem that I outlined. I accept that my right hon. Friend has made attempts to deal with that problem, both by allowing traffic commissioners not to allow more registrations and by giving guidance on how such issues should be dealt with. However, when the different companies challenge the issue it becomes so complicated that the arrangement is unworkable. It is in the interests of the travelling public to move to quality contracts.
	To answer one point made by the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet, let me say that the quality contracts are not anti-competitive. They transfer competition away from the road, where it is wasteful and causes congestion, to a tendering process. That is exactly what happens in London. Incidentally, as those who participated in the debate on concessionary fares last night will know, the contracts deal with that problem. If the concessionary fares are put into a quality contract, there is no need to deal with all the complicated calculations about what would have happened on a bus before the people with concessionary fares got on to it.
	The real answer for transport in metropolitan areas, and in most of the rest of the country, is to move to quality contracts, which are close to the system in London. Many hon. Members have made points about the complications that might be caused by the approvals boards and by traffic commissioners making decisions. I cannot see any reason why traffic commissioners should be able to put themselves into a better position than elected councillors to make decisions about the quality of bus services. That simply offends against local democracy. Placing a statutory duty on the integrated transport authorities to consult interested parties, and to get the process checked by an independent body, would provide as much security against judicial challenge as anything else.
	This is a fight against avaricious bus companies that have made hay while the sun has shone over the past 20 years. They have used a system that, to give it the benefit of the doubt, was set up to allow bus companies to respond to passengers, whereas in fact they have responded to subsidy. As all junkies will—these people are subsidy junkies—they will fight to keep what they want: their subsidies. I shall finish with a quotation from Brian Souter, cited in the Sheffield  Star on 30 October 2006. He said:
	"If franchising or Quality Contracts are brought in we will put all our depots up for sale in South Yorkshire. That is not a threat"—
	it clearly is—
	"it's just that we don't think it is the way to make the system work".
	I think that it is the way to make the system work, and that the travelling public will benefit from it. I hope that Ministers and elected councillors on passenger transport authorities or integrated transport authorities have the stomach for a fight to get a better transport system in metropolitan areas and elsewhere.

Elfyn Llwyd: First, I wish to say how much I enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer), who is obviously an expert on the subject. I am not, alas, but I want to make a few points. I declare an interest: I am, by nature, a bus enthusiast. I actually enjoy travelling by bus. On the No. 148 and the No. 12 in the mornings, I have my best ideas—they are few and far between, but I do have them occasionally.
	The buzz word nowadays is "integration". I remember spending a family holiday in central France and southern Brittany back in the mid-1980s. The brand new car that I had bought a month before going on holiday broke down irreparably. I had to leave it there and travel back, with a baby and a young girl of three, by train from central France. We were in a rural setting, and I was absolutely dreading the journey. We went from one village to the next by train and then stopped, occasionally changing to a bus that was waiting to take us to the next railway station. Even now, I think that that is the benchmark for integration, even though it was back in the mid-1980s. I would love to see that situation mirrored in rural Wales, and I hope that one day it will be. It behoves us all to do what we can to ensure that public transport is available, reasonable and convenient.
	I made an intervention on the Minister earlier about consultation on subsidies. There are members of the Select Committee on Transport in the Chamber, and I understand that it suggested until about eight months ago that the issue of subsidy should be part of the Bill. Although I had a full reply from the Minister, it would appear to fly in the face of advice given by the Select Committee.
	Local authorities are obviously in a good position to play a major role in transport—that is quite clear. Like many people in this Chamber, a frequent complaint that I hear in advice surgeries is of a lack of co-ordination in the provision of public transport. That brings me back to the idea of integration. Sometimes a bus service where I live arrives at a town, allowing less than 30 minutes before the last return service from that town. At other times, an unduly long wait is in prospect, which is also quite hopeless. Travel to work is also an important issue.
	The situation is made more confusing by the existence of the cross-border factors that are common in rural Wales. My constituency of Meirionnydd Nant Conwy is covered by two county councils. They do their best to provide good bus services, but the area also has two train operators running two separate lines. I welcome the parts of the Bill that deal with integrated transport schemes, and I hope that they lead to an improvement in due course.
	The regulations under clause 18 will give Welsh Ministers responsibility for ensuring that services are properly timed, with reasonable fares, frequencies and so on. The quality contract schemes were discussed earlier, and I accept the contention from the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley that they will be complex. In Wales, however, they will be a matter for Welsh Ministers, and clause 18 sets out the criteria—frequencies, timings, fares, as well as maximum and minimum intervals between services and so on—that must be taken into consideration. If those criteria are implemented properly, the bad examples to which I have referred will become less frequent—in the area that I represent, throughout Wales and, of course, beyond.
	I hope that the Bill will ensure better co-ordination of bus and train services in the future; otherwise, the offer of free travel to senior citizens will be something of an empty promise.
	Furthermore, it is plain that the co-ordination of good services is an economic imperative. A growing number of people—although perhaps still too few—would prefer to use public transport if it were reliable, timely, safe, clean and relatively inexpensive. It should also meet all the other criteria that we all take for granted, and there is no doubt that those criteria will weigh heavily on the minds of those who, under the legislation, will approve transport schemes.
	There is nothing new about subsidies. Clause 64 amends the Transport (Wales) Act 2006 and extends the powers to subsidise public passenger transport services to cover standards of service—the frequency or the timing of a service, the days or times of day when it is provided, and the vehicles used to provide it. The latter condition, of course, has to do with the quality-safety issue that we discussed earlier.
	I hope that another criterion can be inserted into clause 64, as there needs to be a requirement for co-ordination with other local services. Integration of that sort is very important, especially given that we do not have passenger integration authorities in Wales.
	The clauses dealing with road charging have led to fierce debate, even though they have been included in previous legislation. It is an understatement to say that the proposals have caused an argument, as the question of road charging seems to be one of the main reasons why the official Opposition will vote against giving the Bill a Second Reading.
	The amendment uses rather extravagant language. It states that the House should decline to give the Bill a Second Reading
	"because it transfers revenue-raising powers to the National Assembly for Wales without proper constitutional justification and in doing so allows Wales to be used as a test bed for the Government's untried, untested national road pricing scheme."
	Is that hyperbole, or what? If the Conservatives are serious, they should tell us when any such scheme has ever been set up. To give Ken Livingstone his due, my journey every morning on the No. 12 bus is 10 minutes shorter than it was before he brought in his reforms. It is all very well to say that Wales could be a test-bed, but London has been used in that fashion anyway and, by and large, the operation has been very successful. It is disingenuous to hide behind the idea that we in Wales are suddenly to becoming guinea pigs.
	The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers) asked why we in Wales should have to be subjected to the road pricing scheme. With respect, the answer is that the National Assembly for Wales said that it wanted it, because it wants to think about the environment, as it wants to set an example. Cardiff is a conurbation, albeit a smaller conurbation than many others, and it could be a beacon of good practice. We could start something new. We could show that such a scheme can work not only in London, but elsewhere. However, I take her point about the need for an alternative public transport strategy to be made available as soon as possible after the introduction of the scheme, or even when the scheme is introduced. That point is well made.
	With regard to the Conservative view, a gentleman by the name of Andrew R.T. Davies, an Assembly Member in Cardiff, actually pleaded with the First Minister for the power to be brought to Wales. I shall quote from the  Hansard of 11 March, just a few days ago. He said:
	"One power that the Assembly Government is trying to seek from Westminster is over road charging, via the Local Transport Bill. Do you think that any of these schemes"—
	schemes to which he had referred—
	"merit road charging, given that the Deputy First Minister said that only new projects would be considered for road charging?"
	He was pleading for road charging in his constituency, and said that it was high time that road charging was introduced.
	I hoped that the Conservatives would have a settled view on a matter as important as road charging, but I do not for one moment accept that road charging is any kind of stealth tax. It is rather too obvious to be a stealth anything, really. If it works properly, its benefits will be equally obvious. To go back to a point that I tried to make earlier, any moneys recovered under a road charging scheme would be hypothecated for further road improvements, so in that respect we are not talking about a levy, with money being put into the general pot. There are safeguards that come into play.
	Clause 115 allows for the creation of trunk road charging schemes in Wales, giving the National Assembly for Wales additional powers to pass Assembly measures under fields 5 and 10 of schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006. In other words, the clause allows the Assembly to impose charges on vehicles on Welsh trunk roads, in cases where Welsh Ministers are the traffic authority. One such trunk road is the A470, which runs the length of Wales from my constituency all the way to Cardiff. I do not think that Welsh Ministers are getting ready to impose charges on the entirety of that road. I hope that they will be thinking of roads near built-up areas—perhaps those areas where new bypasses are required—roads that carry large volumes of traffic, and certainly areas where there is an alternative public transport option. Common sense dictates that the areas should be those with viable public transport. The rather extravagant language of the reasoned amendment would make one think that we in Wales are suddenly to be crushed by an almighty shock in the next few months. Frankly, I do not foresee that, having read the Bill fairly carefully.
	Clause 114 is important because it states that any moneys derived from road pricing would go straight back into schemes. Again, there will be a requirement on Welsh Ministers to consider asking the local charging authority to consult on, or allow a Welsh Minister to hold an inquiry into, a local charging scheme. That is appropriate. If a local charging scheme is to be imposed, a Welsh Minister will decide whether there will be a public inquiry, and I think that that is absolutely right, to go back to the point made by the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley. Meaningful consultation must be a core part of the Bill, and appears to be so in relation to the Welsh clauses.
	By and large, the Bill will be useful. It will empower the National Assembly to do far more to provide good, sustainable, affordable public transport in Wales, but some legitimate concerns have been expressed about omissions from the Bill. The Freight Transport Association sent us all, I am sure, a briefing which refers to civil parking enforcement. The FTA says that that has led to a meteoric rise in the number of penalty charges issued in London to companies making legitimate and essential deliveries in the capital. It goes on to say that evidence from FTA members suggests that that effect is spreading well outside London as civil parking enforcement is adopted. The Bill might have been an appropriate means for changes to be made. The concern seems to be genuine. The FTA states:
	"Penalties are often given for legitimate unloading—the maximum time may be exceeded because deliveries are consolidated".
	Further elucidation of those views might be forthcoming in Committee. The point is well made by the FTA that there is nothing in the Bill to promote the delivery and movement of freight. Perhaps that will also be considered in Committee.
	The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) called the Bill a curate's egg and said that we should not swallow it whole. Swallowing eggs whole is best not done because there is the risk of indigestion and it is not good manners. I have one or two misgivings about the Bill. I do not suggest that it should be given carte blanche, but there are far more good things than bad in this curate's egg. My colleagues and I will therefore vote against the reasoned amendment. On the admission of the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet earlier, there are several good things in the Bill. I agree. A policy of throwing the baby out with the bath water would be rather unwise.

Paul Truswell: It is a pleasure to follow most of the contributions to the debate, and particularly pleasurable eventually to follow the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight)—I apologise for mentioning him when he is not in his seat—who admirably performed the role of the parliamentary equivalent of a speed hump.
	I am delighted that the Bill has come before the House. My comments are intended to be supportive. Like some of my hon. Friends, I shall suggest ways in which it might be improved. For years, various Labour colleagues and I have striven to make the case for bus operators to be made more accountable to the communities and passengers whom they serve. Indeed, on occasions I have referred to myself and my hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer) and for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts), among others, as
	"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers".
	Now, we are joined by some energetic sisters in the shape of our hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Dr. Blackman-Woods) and for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) and my right hon. Friend the Minister.
	During at least nine years of debates in the Chamber, Westminster Hall and elsewhere, it sometimes felt as though we had fired off all the ammunition supplied to us by constituents and our own personal experiences, only for it to bounce off the rather thick-skinned responses from Ministers suitably briefed by their civil servants. That is one point on which I agree with the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers); beyond that, however, I cease to agree with anything that she said at all. While I am mentioning the hon. Lady, I should say that I displayed geographical ignorance earlier by not identifying the fact that she is herself a London MP. Given that, I wish to change what I said earlier and say that it is a pity that, if her party has its way, the benefits of regulation in London, which her constituents enjoy, will continue to be denied to my and most other Members' constituents.
	I accept that it is desirable for us to move forward on a voluntary basis if we can; one voluntary agreement is probably worth 10 pressed ones. I also accept that we need not necessarily always go down the road of quality contracts and that a range of measures could be deployed. Indeed, there might not be a quality contract for the whole area of regions such as West Yorkshire—not even for the whole of Leeds, where my seat is located; the contract might apply only to parts where it has been impossible to provide decent services by any other means.
	The hon. Lady painted a rather rosy, Elysian-fields picture of the products of bus deregulation, but it in no way conforms with my or my constituents' experiences. I wish I could say that it did and that the Bill was unnecessary. I cannot remember a time during my 11 years as an MP, or the years that I served as a councillor, when I have not been involved in taking up constituents' concerns about the removal of, or damaging changes to, services provided to local communities.
	Since deregulation, quality and standards have fallen dramatically and fares have gone up by almost 50 per cent. in real terms in West Yorkshire. The number of passengers has fallen by almost 40 per cent.—in round figures, that represents about 100 million passenger journeys. The declines in most other passenger transport executive areas have been even more precipitous; I understand that in PTE areas overall, patronage has fallen by about 50 per cent.
	The problem with the deregulated system is that bus companies can pick and choose what services they provide and make profits even when they provide a poor service. Services are chopped and changed and are missing or late. Passengers feel powerless and vote with their feet, if they can, by using their cars. Many people in my constituency—and I am sure that this picture is replicated the length and breadth of this country—are being denied a reliable and affordable service to work, schools, colleges, shops, health centres and hospitals. As a result, they turn to councillors, MPs and the passenger transport executives, but they find that nothing can be done to resolve the problems.
	While my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough was talking about having held public meetings, a Conservative Member shouted, "What next?" My hon. Friend did not rise to the bait, but we all know what is next—nothing at all. Communities, passengers, MPs and councillors can bring no power to bear on bus operators to ensure that they address the needs of passengers and communities.
	The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet talked about empowering customers, yet her party's amendment would deprive communities and their elected representatives of the ability to bring to bear powers that would provide the exact empowerment for which she purported to argue.
	Passenger transport executives subsidise about 13 per cent. of services, and the rest are simply out of their control. There is little or no competition for contracts, so it is absolutely impossible to gauge whether there is value for money. I intervened earlier to drive home the point that even in its own dogmatic, market-driven terms, deregulation has been a failure.
	The local network in my area comprises high-frequency routes such as service 4 into Pudsey, the 16 to Farsley and the 42 to Old Farnley, together with a combination of other routes on the Leeds-Bradford corridor. Services that serve local communities have been subject to successive changes that tend to have concentrated bus resources on high-frequency major routes, which are obviously primarily focused on generating profit. We talk about voluntary partnerships, but partnerships always exist on the basis of what bus operators are prepared to do; there are very few concessions to meet community needs.
	I will not run through the roll-call of services that have been lost in my constituency over the past 11 years, because it would take up far too much time. For example, changes to services in Guiseley and Yeadon have resulted in the loss of significant links with nearby Bradford, which has caused tremendous hardship for regular travellers who depend on those services. Frequency has been reduced on services that penetrate local housing estates and provide links to Pudsey town centre, to the Owlcotes shopping centre and to Bramley. There is a frequent service through the centre of Farsley, one of the small villages in my constituency, yet half a mile away older people living in sheltered accommodation have lost their vital bus link into the Farfield estate. Links to local facilities such as health centres, post offices and supermarkets are often ignored as part of the operator's service planning process. Another notable example in my constituency of the lack of bus links is the lack of any services to the recently rebuilt Wharfedale hospital and to primary health care facilities at Eccleshill in Bradford. I cannot remember a time when I have not been taking up bus service-related issues, and the present time is no exception. At the moment, my constituents and I are pursuing issues surrounding the removal of the 81 service, which serves several communities, and the 966 service that serves Yeadon.
	As other hon. Members have pointed out, the decline in bus services and patronage affects not only passengers but everyone, whether they use buses or not. Poor services lead to increased car use, which creates even more congestion, pollution and road safety hazards in our communities. The message in the Conservatives' amendment is, "We'll just have more of the same; we'll do nothing." They said that the Bill could have been introduced in various guises of which they might have been more supportive, but we have not been given any examples of what those approaches could have been.
	It is absolutely crucial that we get quality contracts right. We cannot have another false dawn such as that which many of us predicted in discussions relating to what eventually became the Transport Act 2000. It has taken us many years of cajoling and debate to get the message across that we needed to replace the "only practicable way" test. Like many of my colleagues who have this issue engraved into our very hearts and souls, I have some reservations about the process that is being proposed for the introduction of quality contracts. It feels as though having achieved the long-sought breakthrough, we are beginning to bend ever so slightly to the will of bus operators and, dare I say, the advice of civil servants. Quality contracts should be the last chance saloon; they should not be resorted to glibly or mischievously. Far from being in the last chance saloon, bus operators, through the process laid down in the Bill, will be able to engage in a quasi-legal pub crawl in the taprooms of the traffic commissioners and the transport tribunal before going for a big judicial booze-up in the courts. That will unnecessarily delay the process that is laid down. To move on to another analogy, I do not want an insuperable legal high-jump to be replaced by an interminable bureaucratic marathon. We do not need a long period of instability and uncertainty created by unnecessary tinkering with the structures and processes.
	It seems to me, especially in discussion with those responsible at the sharp end for delivering the measures in the Bill, that the new process could involve agreeing a plan with the Government on funding for associated bus priority measures, an inquiry by the traffic commissioners, an inquiry or appeal by the transport tribunal and, potentially, a judicial review. My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley made it absolutely clear that whatever safeguards are built in, we will still find ourselves subjected to judicial review by bus companies that fight tooth and nail to prevent the introduction of quality contracts.
	My right hon. Friend the Minister referred to the approach as being belt and braces, but to my mind, it is not only belt and braces, but safety pins and keeping our hands in our pockets as well—it really over-eggs the process. Try as I may—hon. Members with more experience may be able to correct me—I have not been able to find a parallel in local government decision making for this two-stage appeal process followed by an opportunity to go to court. In planning, major decisions are made that affect individuals, companies and commercial interests through applications, enforcement notices and structure plans, but we do not have a three-tier, or two-tier—call it what you will—appeal process. We do not have such a process in environmental health enforcement, licensing appeals or the allocation of school places, so why do we need it in this case?
	Quality contracts in places such as Leeds and West Yorkshire will ultimately prove to be the only mechanism available to deliver the sort of services that communities need and passengers deserve. They should provide greater reliability because services will be thoroughly monitored and good performance incentivised. If we get them right, they will provide more stability with fewer changes to fares, times and frequencies. There will be better integration—a point made time and time again in this debate—and an ability to make services cleaner and greener, as the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) rightly said.
	Implicit in the Bill is the assumption that local authorities and passenger transport authorities, or whatever their successors are called, will somehow engage glibly and mischievously in the pursuit of quality contracts, but nothing could be further from the truth. There are so many risks and complex issues that have to be taken into account before anyone embarks on this process. The transition to quality contracts and the associated legal process would be difficult enough, even if the Bill were straightforward.
	Those who want to introduce such contracts will have to address issues such as the location of depots, bus fleets, or what to do if there is currently a monopoly, as referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley. All sorts of approaches could be implemented, such as the closing down of depots. No local authority or passenger transport executive in its right mind will engage in the process unless it can be confident that it will achieve value for money, that resources will be better spent than under the status quo and that it will find operators to run the services laid down in the contract. To suggest otherwise is to fly in the face of reality, experience and logic.
	The point has been made about the extra measures introduced on statutory quality partnerships. To echo the views expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough, if operators are not happy with what has been suggested, they can simply walk away. I have still to hear a cogent argument that explains why the measures are necessary in such situations.
	I close by saying that I welcome other measures referred to, such as the establishment of a bus champion. I hope that it will not be a half-hearted measure, but a rigorous proposal that has teeth and that is sufficiently regional or local for us to understand what the challenges facing passengers and communities might be.
	In conclusion, it came as no surprise that the Opposition oppose the Bill, and specifically the quality contract measures that it contains. Change must come. Those of us who have any affinity with our constituencies and any sympathy with those who depend on buses know that change must come. The status quo simply cannot be allowed to continue. The case is overwhelming. I, along with a number of my hon. Friends who have spoken, want to ensure that the Bill puts into effect practical proposals for ending the long nightmare for bus passengers that has followed from bus deregulation.

Stewart Jackson: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell), who always makes an interesting contribution to our debates.
	I beg your indulgence, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in allowing me to talk about quite a narrow issue relating to part 7 of the Bill, entitled "Miscellaneous provisions". The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), who is no longer in his place, said that there had been some missed opportunities and, in the case of clauses 117 and 118, he was absolutely right.
	I am indebted to the SPARKS programme, which is the cross-border civil traffic enforcement group, for its assistance to me in, I hope, putting the case to the House this afternoon. I commend to hon. Members its report of July 2007 entitled "Foreign registered vehicles on UK roads". To put the issue in context, the expansion of the European Union's borders has seen increased international trade and greater freedom of movement across borders. It is now estimated that 3 million foreign-registered vehicles enter the United Kingdom each year. The number of foreign goods vehicles visiting the UK has trebled over the past 10 years, while the number of European nationals employed in the UK has trebled in the past five years and the number of European visitors has increased by 50 per cent. The by-product of that has been a surge of foreign-registered vehicles on our roads, with estimates suggesting 142,000 such vehicles in the United Kingdom at any one time.
	Such vehicles are difficult to trace, and it is often impractical to impose penalties for traffic or parking violations, or tax evasion, for example. There is a concern that some—not all—drivers of foreign-registered vehicles are aware of the loopholes in the system, particularly the inability to enforce penalties, and are therefore more likely to drive dangerously and take risks. The Department for Transport does not collate data relating to foreign-registered vehicles, however. Indeed, I have been informed that
	"the enforcement of decriminalised contraventions is a matter for the relevant local authority; they are not required to provide such information to the Government."
	With no means of tracing, tracking or recording the number of foreign-registered vehicles in the United Kingdom, and with little idea of the patterns of movement, mileage or, of course, traffic contraventions, considerable strain is being put on local police forces, local authorities and enforcement agencies, which are being required to address the increasing incidence of foreign-registered vehicles violating traffic regulations ad hoc.
	I should like to refer to a freedom of information request by the  Peterborough Evening Telegraph this month—I am mindful of "Erskine May" and your advice, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so I will not wave a copy of the article. Suffice it to say that the response to the request revealed that between September 2003 and January 2008, 1,748 of 1,886 penalty charge notices issued to foreign-registered vehicles had been written off and remain unpaid, costing Peterborough city council—the local authority in my constituency—more than £86,000. Some reports nationally indicate that untaxed foreign-registered vehicles have cost the taxpayer £214 million in lost revenue in the past five years.
	There are no robust data on the volume and mix of foreign-registered vehicle activity, or on how it is distributed across the UK. We can only conjecture with regard to the regional distribution of foreign-registered vehicles, but with migrant workers being accountable for 28 per cent. of all foreign-registered vehicles in the UK, we can speculate that many areas will have encountered the problems associated with having these vehicles on UK roads. This is no longer a problem facing only London and the south-east, and there have been recent examples of this issue as far away as Coventry and Loughborough. Tourist and goods vehicles also account for a significant proportion of foreign-registered vehicles on the UK roads, but the problems largely associated with those categories of vehicle are perhaps regarded as the lesser of two evils, so to speak.
	Speeding and illegal parking are two examples of the contraventions that these drivers might be accountable for. In fairness, the incidence of persistent offending is relatively rare, but the problem has a significant impact on local communities, which are subjected to disturbance and dangers on their roads as a result of the irresponsible driving of foreign-registered vehicles. I mentioned earlier the cost of unpaid parking fines in Peterborough. As well as lost revenue, parking regulation infringements are responsible for disturbing and annoying local residents, who largely abide by the parking regulations. Furthermore, trying to recoup payment for the offences wastes the valuable time and resources of local authorities.
	There is also a real concern that if penalties cannot be enforced, higher levels of violation will inevitably occur. This is making our roads more dangerous and more expensive for the law-abiding citizen, who must ultimately bear the burden of unpaid fines and penalties. Reports have suggested that foreign-registered vehicles are 30 per cent. more likely to be involved in an accident and 20 per cent. more likely to fail roadside tests, as their drivers are less likely to observe vehicle safety and maintenance regulations. In London, the drivers of foreign-registered vehicles are twice as likely as UK drivers to avoid paying the congestion charge. That said, we should draw a distinction between foreign-registered vehicles and illegal foreign-registered vehicles.
	The significant increase in the number of foreign-registered vehicles on our roads is a direct result of the increase in the number of migrant workers in the UK, many of whom have failed to register their vehicles after the specified six months. Peterborough has experienced the considerable impact of a migrant population and the burden that that has placed on local resources. Reports from local constabularies and local authorities suggest that these drivers are more likely to contravene traffic regulations. That has certainly been the case in the Peterborough city council area.
	There also appears to be a core group to whom the apparent weaknesses in the system have become clear. Those involved have now become repeat abusers of the system. Their reckless disregard for UK traffic laws and for the safety of the communities in which they live is being allowed to continue because of the Government's failure—not necessarily a wilful failure—to tackle this issue.
	As these vehicles have not been registered, they are unlikely to have car tax or insurance, or to have undergone any vehicle safety checks, which means that they pose a considerable risk. Perhaps most worrying is the apparent number of drivers of foreign-registered vehicles who, despite being aware of the regulations on vehicle registration, are now choosing to ignore their responsibility to get a legitimate licence or number plate, because they wish to stay outside the law and to benefit from the avoidance of fines and penalties.
	SPARKS has stated that we need a "holistic", equal and fair system for all drivers, because the present system is breeding a culture of complacency that leads some foreign residents to ignore our traffic laws. Indeed, the system appears actively to encourage some drivers of foreign-registered vehicles to avoid registration.
	I accept that provision has been made in clauses 117 and 118 to deal with this issue, but that provision is limited. Without further powers, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency will be unable to provide local authorities with the addresses to which penalty charge notices should be sent when a foreign-registered vehicle has committed a road traffic contravention.
	At present, the general situation is opaque and confused for local authorities, which has major resource implications, as I shall explain more fully later. One of the sanctions available is to clamp foreign-registered vehicles that persistently flout parking regulations, but Government guidance in respect of and under the auspices of the Traffic Management Act 2004 is that clamping should be discouraged and used only in the case of "serial repeat offenders".

Stephen Hesford: How many letters on this subject has the hon. Gentleman received from his constituents?

Stewart Jackson: I have received a number of representations, particularly from the Millfield and New England areas of the city of Peterborough, from the city council, SPARKS and a number of other key stakeholders. It is an important issue. I concede that it may not be a pertinent issue to every Member in the House, but it certainly is to me, given that over the last four years 20,000 EU migrants have moved into my constituency and surrounding areas. That is why I am speaking on behalf of my constituents about this key issue.
	On 26 April 2007, the then Transport Minister, the hon. Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman), answered a written question as follows:
	"There is no current legislation available to the Agency, which allows for the prosecution of keepers of foreign vehicles who have failed to register their vehicles within the required timescales. However, if the Agency receives a report recording the sighting of an unlicensed vehicle on the road, the Agency is able to prosecute under the legislation provided by Section 29 VERA"—
	vehicle enforcement for road authorities. The answer continued:
	"There are practical difficulties with this and unless a name and address of the keeper of the foreign vehicle is provided the Agency is unable to pursue these cases. The Agency is able to utilise other enforcement action such as the wheel clamping and impounding of a vehicle."
	However, as so often in these cases, and as the Minister continued:
	"The number of prosecutions of foreign vehicles under this legislation in each of the last five years is not collated."—[ Official Report, 26 April 2007; Vol. 459, c. 1205W.]
	More recently, in a written answer of 14 March at column 694W, the present Minister prayed in aid the European Commission draft directive on cross-border enforcement of road traffic matters, which was published on 20 March last week. The weakness of the draft directive is that it includes criminal offences such as drink-driving, speeding issues related to seat belt compliance and so forth, but not parking or other civil traffic offences. It thus specifically fails to address the wider issue of unfair and unequal treatment of all drivers. Neither the draft directive nor, indeed, the Bill will level the playing field or equalise the treatment of resident and non-resident drivers. Furthermore, both the Bill and directive address only the issue of data exchange rather than penalty enforcement, which is, in fact, reliant on Council framework decision 2005/214/JHA, known as COPEN 24.
	In conclusion, I fully accept that I have focused on a very narrow aspect of the Bill, but it is nevertheless an important issue that impacts significantly on my constituency. My plea to the Government is that it is now imperative further to examine these particular provisions in Committee with a view to tabling amendments. If the Government themselves do not table them, I hope that they will see fit to support other amendments when the Bill comes back on Report. As I say, the issue is important. I concede that the Government are considering amendments, and I implore those who are fortunate enough to serve on the Committee to support them. My principal concern is that the Bill does not go far enough in tackling repeat offenders and those who avoid registering their vehicles. On behalf of my constituents and others across the country, I strongly urge the Minister to consider this extremely serious issue carefully.

Clive Betts: I will concentrate my remarks on the contents of the Bill with regard to local bus services, and briefly mention integrated transport authorities and congestion charging at the end.
	Coming from South Yorkshire, as does my right hon. Friend the Minister, it is easy for me to lapse into thinking about the golden age of bus services in the late '70s and early '80s. We can have a bit of nostalgia for that, because when fares were 10p and 12p for adult passengers, tuppence for children and free for pensioners, people actually used their local buses. It was not uncommon to see in the same bus queue the steelworker in his overalls and the bank manager with his umbrella and bowler hat, because the bus services were for everyone. As a result, even motorists who used to complain about having to pay towards the costs of local bus services in their rates benefited, because they drove their car on relatively congestion-free roads.
	Within a couple of years of deregulation, bus fares were rising, passengers were disappearing and congestion was on the roads in the centre of Sheffield, where it has remained ever since. We can have too much nostalgia for the past—we must recognise that life has moved on, living standards have changed, and the ways in which people conduct their lives have altered. It is therefore unlikely that we would have kept the same degree of bus use, even within a regulated environment. We must also accept that there were questions about value for money at the time, and about the restrictive nature of some of the services offered. We would want to move on from that, so I do not argue for a return to those days. But many of my constituents, particularly the elderly, are nostalgic, because their daily experience of local public transport is that services have got a lot worse.
	Recently, passenger numbers have recovered slightly due to the elderly using their welcome free passes, for which the Government deserve great credit. Even so, for every person who rode a bus in Sheffield in 2006, there were three who rode a bus 20 years before. After deregulation, therefore, a third of the passengers are left. It is impossible to justify calling that a success; it is simply not working. The Conservative party's claim that no change in the system is needed for areas such as South Yorkshire is completely unsupported by the facts, the reality on the ground and the daily experience of my constituents. Local bus fares have gone through the roof—from 10p to £2. Has any public or other essential service risen as much in price over the same period? I cannot think of anything that has, but perhaps somebody else can.
	Congestion has arrived, with Sheffield becoming gridlocked on occasions over the past few years. The Government's welcome extra investment in the inner ring road has helped to address that, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) said, roads in the centre of Sheffield now have about 15 per cent. spare capacity at peak times. Traffic is growing at 2 to 3 per cent. a year, and it may slow slightly with the rise in fuel costs, but at some point gridlock will again be reached, unless something changes. I will deal with more such issues later.
	The reality for individuals is that they cannot plan their lives. At 42 days' notice, their lifeline—the local bus on which they rely—can be taken away. That lifeline might take someone to an early shift in a job across town, starting at 6 or 7 am. If the bus goes, their chance of that job goes. That lifeline might be needed by an elderly person to go to the home where their elderly spouse is. If that is taken away, that person may face either a journey of an hour and a half or two hours on several buses to get to that location or the prospect of moving their loved one. The service might be needed by an elderly person who can no longer get to a post office, or an elderly couple who cannot get to see their grandchildren because their residential situation has been based on the ability to get buses to do that and they do not have a car. It might be needed by young people who want to meet their friends in the centre of town at night and suddenly find that the bus does not run any more, which means that they either have to rely on their parents and lose their independence or not go out to their normal place of entertainment.
	All those things are essential parts of people's lives and they can be removed at 42 days' notice. As my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell) said, when the complaints come, the services can be removed with virtually no chance of redress or there is virtually no chance of any change being made in response. It is a policy of social and economic exclusion because it hits most the young, the elderly and those on low incomes—the people who do not have ready access to a car. It discriminates against them more than any other group in society.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough mentioned the nonsense that for years the passenger transport executive in South Yorkshire has been trying to get through-ticketing among the various bus operators, but they will not have it. They want to concentrate on their own narrow interests and on making profits for their company. If people happen to live in an area where First runs the buses and they want to get on the tram, which is run by Stagecoach, it is hard luck. They will end up paying more because the through-ticketing simply does not work.
	We have the tram in South Yorkshire. I shall be a bit critical of my right hon. Friend the Minister because it should be extended. It is a great system. It works. It is popular. The Youth Parliament did an excellent survey in Sheffield which assessed young people's attitude towards public transport. It was generally positive, but most positive about the tram, which it saw as a quality service because it was safe and reliable. It should run to Rotherham.
	The tram was a top concern when the regional assembly looked at its list of transport priorities, but the Government said that it was not worth the money. I am a bit critical of that, and we might return to it at another time. However, the tram was designed as part of an integrated public transport service. Bus services linked in to it so that people could get on the bus, get a feeder service on to the tram and get quickly into town. As soon as the tram came in, we got a deregulated environment and the bus companies saw it as their job not to co-ordinate with the tram, but to compete with it. They designed their bus routes to run parallel with the tram instead of linking into it. That is a policy of nonsense. It undermines and undervalues all the public investment that went into it.

Theresa Villiers: The hon. Gentleman clearly sees regulation as the solution to those problems, but we had the problem of buses competing with trams in Croydon, in the capital city. Transport for London ended up in court because it was deliberately scheduling buses in a way that was very competitive with the Croydon Tramlink. On that point, and I think on a number of others, simply regulating will not deliver the solution to the problems that concern him.

Clive Betts: I would be interested to hear what solution the hon. Lady proposes if regulation is not the answer, because deregulation has proved an unmitigated disaster in terms of integrating transport. I challenge her on the point about London. She said that the situation is down to the subsidies rather than the regulation. My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer) pointed out that prior to the extra subsidy, passenger numbers were holding steady in London while they were falling in the rest of the country. If the element of subsidy in London is so important, would she advocate, as a policy, putting that subsidy into a deregulated environment? How could a subsidy of that kind and amount operate in any scheme except a regulated one?
	To pick up on just one point about subsidy and deregulation, one of the problems—hon. Members have expressed this at various times—of dealing with subsidies for the concessionary fare scheme in a deregulated environment is how to calculate that a bus company should not lose or gain as a result of its being introduced. It is a difficult and complicated calculation, which will always end up in an appeal or in the courts. The concessionary fare scheme is part of the tendered arrangement in the regulated environment in London. There are no arguments about calculation because each bus company that tenders for the arrangements makes its calculation about the concessionary fares along with its calculation about the overall tender. I would argue that that is a much better system in that sense as well, but again perhaps the hon. Lady does not see it that way.
	As other Labour Members have pointed out, parts of our constituencies are not served at all. I could cite a number of examples, but recently the treasurer of Woodhouse Mill working men's club came to see me. He lives in Woodhouse, at one end of the enlarged village, and Woodhouse Mill is at the other end. Because he lives at the wrong end and the bus service now stops at 7 pm, he cannot go to the club unless he drives. He has a car, but he should not really drive and encourage others to drive when they are going for a drink at a working men's club.
	Between those two areas is a magnificent new retirement village, Brunswick Gardens, which has proved to be a great success and a great improvement on other facilities in the environment. The people who live there, however, cannot go to the shops in Woodhouse at night. The removal of the bus service has taken away their lifeline. That is nonsensical, but the bus companies will not respond to complaints because they do not understand the wider issue.
	South Yorkshire council was so concerned about the position that a couple of years ago it embarked on the process of adopting quality contracts, but it hit the high barrier of a quality contract being the only practical way of delivering services. I accept that ultimately more subsidy may be needed to make the scheme work more successfully, but at that time the council was faced with the reality of, in some cases, up to 20 buses an hour running on a single route while a neighbouring estate had no bus services at all. If the whole arrangement were put out to tender, it would probably be possible to manage with 15 buses rather than 20 on the main route with no loss of service or passenger numbers; but it would be possible to increase revenue and passenger numbers by using the other five buses—no more resources, just the buses—to serve the areas that are currently not served at all, and give people an incentive to travel to them.
	Quality contracts make it possible to increase passenger numbers and improve services with the same amount of money that is being spent now. That will be a challenge for passenger transport authorities, but it is something that they will have to consider. As I have said, ultimately even more subsidy may be needed, and I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley that there is too great a disparity between subsidy levels in London and outside. That too will have to be considered.
	I welcome the principle of allowing passenger transport authorities to adopt quality contracts if they wish. As the Local Government Association has pointed out, it is a matter of choice for authorities—something that I thought the Conservatives now supported. Although during their 18 years in government they did not give local authorities much choice, I thought we had seen a conversion, but we seem to be back with the same old Tory party. "We at the centre know best, and there should be no freedom for local transport authorities to decide": that is their policy, and they should come out and admit it. I do not think that every transport authority should have to adopt a quality contract, but there should be a range of options of which that should be one.

Stewart Jackson: I am listening to the hon. Gentleman's speech with great interest. He is obviously passionate about the issue, and, like the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer), something of an expert on it. However, it ill behoves him to lecture Conservative Members on central control when his Government are using blackmail, monetary blackmail, to force on—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman was in the Chamber earlier when I said that I was not very happy with that particular word. Perhaps he will use a different term.

Stewart Jackson: Forgive me, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was engaged in other duties involving a statutory instrument, so I missed that exciting part of the debate.
	The Government are using coercion, financial coercion, to force on local transport authorities schemes that their electors have not chosen to pursue.

Clive Betts: I do not believe that any authority has been forced to adopt any particular scheme, although there is money for which authorities can bid if they wish to introduce innovations in their areas. I shall deal later with the issue of congestion charging.
	As I was saying, quality contracts empower local transport authorities and give them choice, and I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Minister and her colleagues for finally moving in that direction. Some of us had been arguing for some time that the present arrangements were not working, and that we needed to do something about them. However, I still have reservations about the procedure. I fear that, ultimately, it could allow an unelected approvals board to second-guess and override the decision of an elected transport authority.
	I take on board the point—I shall want to pursue it further if I am involved in the Committee stage—that there might be dialogue with the approvals board; it might want to make some suggestions for the transport authority to look at to improve the scheme. I have no problem with that. My problem is that if the approvals board says it does not believe that it is in the public interest or represents value for money for a quality contract scheme to be adopted in an area, will that mean that it cannot be adopted, because that would override the view of a local, elected, accountable body?
	To refer to an interesting point made by the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), before he spoke I had already written down in my notes the idea of having a statutory consultee. In considering whether to move to a quality contract or what the best approach is for local transport in an area, if a transport authority were required to take on board comments from statutory consultees, of which an approvals board could be one, that would enable input from such a board, but in the end it would be up to the transport authority to make the decision. If the authority overrode the advice of the approvals board, that could be taken into account in any challenge in a future court case. Appeals could still be made to the transport tribunal to ensure that the transport authority had followed the procedure laid down in coming to its decision.
	The idea is that the transport authority has to go through a certain procedure, then the approvals board has to go through one as well and almost second-guess the process—I welcome the fact that it has to do it within the time frame that the Minister laid down—and then there is a tribunal that is meant to be held instead of judicial review, although there can be a judicial review as well. My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey said that that was like replacing the high jump with a marathon; I think it replaces it with a series of high hurdles. It is possible that the democratically elected transport authority might fall before it crosses the finishing line. I feel uncomfortable with the amount of second-guessing going on and the fact that the approvals board can override purely in terms of its views about value for money or public interest. I would want to explore that further in later stages of the Bill's passage. I agree with hon. Friends who have said that some of the bus operators are so determined to prevent this from happening that they will go to judicial review whatever consideration is given by whatever body before a quality contractor is brought into place.
	I am pleased that my right hon. Friend the Minister has recognised the issue of the potential threat of withdrawal of services by operators and will allow powers for the PTAs to run or purchase buses in the meantime as an interim measure; that is helpful. If we are to have real competition in moving towards quality contracts, she might also have to address the issue that South Yorkshire looked at concerning the provision of depots and of the PTE owning them in future, instead of an existing monopoly supplier being in a position to dictate terms and conditions. These are details, however, and the Government's general approach of allowing choice locally is in principle welcome, and can move us forward from the current poor situation that many of my constituents find themselves in.
	On integrated transport authorities, I welcome the Government approach of allowing local arrangements to be formulated at local level. We get ourselves in an awful mess if we are prescriptive about how things should operate, when there are many different local circumstances in different parts of the country. The Government should be congratulated on their hands-off approach. There are reservations, however, about the possibility of non-elected members being able to have a vote on transport authorities. In Sheffield, the city region is partly in South Yorkshire and partly in north Derbyshire, north Nottinghamshire and north Lincolnshire. A lot of people who come to Sheffield to work or for entertainment or other reasons live outside not only the city or county, but the region. There must therefore be possibilities for expanding the local passenger transport authority boundaries with the consent of, and after consultation with, the authorities and population in other areas, if we are to have a sensible long-term approach to passenger transport in the area. Again, the Government's flexible approach allows for such local arrangements to be introduced if they are thought appropriate.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough and I are probably two of the few people in Sheffield who have put their heads over the parapet and said that we support, in principle, the idea of a congestion charge scheme in the city. Such a scheme is probably inevitable in the medium term, let alone in the longer term. I am pleased that the Government now recognise that the decisions about such schemes in cities should be made at local level. I shall draw a contrast: if local authorities can be trusted to get this right, cannot they be trusted to get quality contracts right too? In one case an unfettered power is being given—although there must be consultation, ultimately the decisions lie with the local authority—but the same thing is not quite being offered on quality contracts.
	One thing rightly pointed out by hon. Members—my hon. Friend the Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Clelland) has mentioned this—is the need to improve public transport before congestion charge schemes are introduced, because there must be that alternative. I accept that getting the money up front is difficult, but the New Local Government Network has come up with an idea on tax, income and funding as a general principle for local government, and central Government ought to examine it. It suggests that local government should be able to anticipate the projected future revenues of a congestion charge scheme and borrow against those so that it can fund up front the capital improvements necessary in public transport before the scheme is fully introduced and motorists have to pay. Ideas have been proposed in this area, and I hope that Ministers will examine them.
	One of the things that makes my heart sink is when someone walks into my surgery to complain about a local bus service, because I know that, in reality, I will probably not be able to do anything about a legitimate grievance. Other hon. Members have touched on that point. I have been in this House since 1992, and I have argued strongly on many occasions for a change in the legislation on passenger transport, because the bus service provision substantially disadvantages many of my constituents. The Bill offers the opportunity for many of my constituents who do not have it to get the bus services that they need and deserve. I welcome and support the Bill.

Paul Rowen: May I apologise for missing the start of the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker? I had another meeting to attend, which was tied in with my Front-Bench responsibilities.
	I join other hon. Members in welcoming the broad provisions in the Bill, particularly the end to deregulation. All who represent urban areas have seen the devastating effect that deregulation has had on our communities and on the bus services on which many of them rely so heavily. If one looks outside the urban areas and visits rural areas, one will see that the bus network has virtually disappeared; as hon. Members have said, buses are infrequent.
	Perhaps with one or two exceptions—places such as York, Cambridge and Brighton—deregulation has not worked, primarily because, as the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer) said, we replaced what was largely a public monopoly—most bus companies were run by local councils—with a private monopoly; in most areas, it was replaced by five major bus companies operating in the conurbations. As he rightly said, the interests of those bus companies are about profit and maximising the amount of subsidy that they can get, rather than about providing a public service.
	I served on a passenger transport authority, where I saw what happens each year as it prepares its budget. I have seen how the bus companies juggle which services they will deregister to maximise the subsidy and how the PTA is then forced to make cuts in its regular subsidised service or to increase costs to students and, in the past, to pensioners. Such a system does not have a good effect in terms of enabling proper planning and ensuring that the bus service and bus network meets the needs of the local community.
	Deregulation has served those five major bus companies, especially when one compares the profits that those bus companies make with the return that they get in London, where there is a regulated network. In London, the return is 7, 8 or 9 per cent., but in Greater Manchester and Yorkshire, it is double that. In those urban areas, the private bus companies have profiteered at the expense of passengers and they are not providing the services that we want them to provide.
	I do not accept the claim by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts) that the past was a golden age. I remember one of my first actions as a local councillor was trying to get GM Bus, as it was at the time, to change a bus route, which proved impossible. When deregulation was introduced, we were promised that it would enable that responsiveness to passenger demand. That has not happened, and instead we have seen the withdrawal of bus services. An area such as Rochdale is primarily served by one company—FirstGroup—which provides a poor quality of service that does not meet local needs. Meeting local needs is not the company's aim, because its aim is maximising profit.
	I welcome the proposals in the Bill to introduce regulation, whether through quality contracts or quality partnerships. We have talked a lot about the ills of the past 20 years this afternoon, but we must start to consider what will happen now. As the price of oil increases—I am shocked that the Department for Transport works on an oil price of only $50 a barrel, when the reality is that it is already double that and likely to increase—and people are increasingly unable to use their cars, they will want to rely on public transport, so we need to develop those services. They need to be integrated and, at the same time, we need to address the environmental issues.
	Some of the problems that affect urban areas outside London are that our buses are less environmentally friendly, much older and do not deliver a very good service. That is why they are not attractive to people and why light rail is so much more attractive. One of the disappointments of the Bill is the fact that the total bus subsidy that is paid to the operators as well as to the passenger transport authorities has not been put together. I am talking about the vehicle excise duty rebate, which at the moment is going straight back to the bus companies. I know that the Government are consulting on that point, but it would make much greater sense if, during the passage of the Bill, we could include the VED rebate as a part of the subsidy and forming part of the quality contract. If we want to encourage bus operators to run buses that are full, modern and environmentally efficient, we should grant the subsidy to those operators that can deliver those benefits. That would be a powerful incentive.
	Other hon. Members have talked about the hurdles that are in place for quality contracts. We have had two Transport Acts now, but only one quality partnership contract has been signed. The problem is not, as the Minister suggested earlier, stopping other bus operators muscling in, because that is a problem only in a limited number of areas. In fact, such contracts are missing because the bus operators do not want to play ball and allow their frequencies and their fares to be controlled. At the moment, the operators have the whip hand.
	We have seen two failed attempts at introducing quality partnerships and quality contracts, and the Government need seriously to consider the proposals that are being made. I have always taken it as a fundamental principle that the best people to decide on which services there should be in an area are directly elected local people, whether they are councillors, MPs or whatever. The problem with the quality contract legislation is that although there are two stages beyond the transport authority's making a decision, I know what will happen with the likes of FirstGroup, Stagecoach and so on. They will prevaricate, delay, hold out and make it impossible for local authorities and transport authorities to get contracts up and running.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) had the right idea— although the transport commissioners or the transport tribunal ought to be consulted, the decision ought ultimately to rest with the transport authority. That puts the responsibility where it should be, but it does not take away bus operators' ability to go to the High Court if they are not happy with the decision. Let us be clear that when we are talking about quality contracts or quality partnerships, the system is the same as that which operates so successfully with the railways. We are talking about a franchise that people bid for.
	There need to be safeguards for small operators. Two in my local authority, Bu-Val and Rossendale, provided a service when First Bus refused to do so. I hope that when the quality contract for Rochdale is decided, those two operators will be properly included. Let us make it clear: if we are setting a quality contract, we do not have to set every route and give every route to one operator. There needs to be a dialogue. The problem at the moment is that it all goes one way. If the bus operators cannot get their way, they walk away from the service.
	The Bill gives those powers to transport authorities, and I welcome that. I hope that in Committee Ministers will consider how we can simplify the process as well as speed it up and put the responsibility back where it belongs, with local authorities.
	Finally, I want to talk about road user pricing. I am disappointed that the Government have bottled out of introducing national road user pricing. I remember coming into the House when the Chancellor was Secretary of State for Transport; at that time the Government were talking about running a pricing pilot for freight and lorries. The idea was to make it cost-neutral for British lorries but to introduce a system that ensured that the foreign lorries that use our roads and pay nothing would have to contribute. Such systems operate in Austria and the Czech Republic. When a driver gets to the border, they have to buy a beacon. They register it and they are then charged for the miles that they use on that road.
	Such a scheme would have brought in an additional £250 million in revenue for the Government that could have been used to improve transport. It would have involved no extra tax for anybody in this country, because we would want to make it cost-neutral for British lorries. It would have removed the unfair disadvantage that many of our hauliers face when foreign lorries come over the border from Ireland or wherever. The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) spoke earlier about the traffic offences that such drivers commit. If they had a beacon, they would be registered and easy to chase up.
	The scheme would have given us extra resources, and the Government ought to go back to it. Opening the hard shoulder on our motorways at times of peak traffic is not a solution. As I said earlier, we do not merely need solutions for what has happened in the past 20 years; we need to talk about future problems and what needs to be done. A national road user pricing scheme needs to be introduced, and I think that launching it for lorries would have been non-controversial and allowed the Government to evaluate the pilot and put the scheme into operation.
	I support the power of local transport authorities to introduce their own schemes. I have supported Greater Manchester passenger transport authority in putting forward its scheme, but I have always made it clear that we must have investment up front. As I said earlier, we should be talking about dealing with the problems of the future, not those of the past. If we are to move people from cars to public transport and get that modal switch, public transport must be cheap, clean, efficient, environmentally friendly and readily available. In far too many of our conurbations, that is not currently the case and there is no choice.
	There must be an integrated transport system, with rail, light rail and buses working together. I am disappointed that the Government have not approved the Greater Manchester scheme yet, and I hope that they do. I hope that in Greater Manchester we can demonstrate that such schemes can deliver the sort of service that is not being delivered elsewhere. It is essential that we do so nationally, and I am disappointed that the Government have bottled out of any discussion of, or meaningful move towards, a national system of road user pricing.
	Notwithstanding that, the Bill is welcome and represents a vast improvement on the situation that we faced in the past. The bus has arrived late—11 years too late, in my view—but thank goodness that the Government have listened and that in future, we will perhaps have buses that are regulated and on time, and fares set by democratically elected politicians.

Stephen Hesford: I begin by declaring an interest over and above the fact that I legitimately represent my constituents, a point to which I shall return in a moment. Prior to the 2005 election, in common with many Members who have spoken, much of my mailbag was about the appalling public transport situation in my constituency and the surrounding environment. Hon. Members will have different ways of expressing their relationship with their electorate at election time, but as a result of the sheer volume and persistence of that mail, I gave a personal pledge in my election address to seek re-regulation of local bus services to some extent in this Parliament.
	Having been re-elected in 2005, I immediately wrote to the then Secretary of State for Transport about the matter, to urge that it be taken forward. As other Members have said, the process has been slow, because the Government placed their faith in the Transport Act 2000—not unjustifiably, although we have ultimately had to revisit our position. Quality contracts could not quite get over the hurdle that was set in that Act. When I originally wrote, and certainly when I made my election pledge, I privately said to myself, "I don't know whether we are going to make progress." It was a risk, but I felt I had to do it, so I declare that personal interest. I know that other hon. Members have been plugging away at the matter for a lot longer than I, and I am glad to be on board with them.
	I shall say a little more about how we got to where we are. There was a change of Secretary of State when my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire, South (Mr. Alexander), who is now the Secretary of State for International Development, took up the post in 2006. When there is a change, we often think that we might be able to make a bit more progress. I went to see my right hon. Friend the then Transport Secretary on 23 October 2006, a date that I am given to understand was the 20th anniversary of deregulation. I cannot remember whether the meeting was open or for Labour colleagues only, but my right hon. Friend announced that the Government intended to revisit the question of regulation, I think for the first time since 2000. That news was very welcome to me and to many other hon. Members, although I shall return to the Opposition's response in a few moments.
	My right hon. Friend was not able to say that regulation was a done deal, or that everything had been sorted out. As today's debate has shown, problems remain that need to be discussed. The matter has never been straightforward, but at least we are now able to have the debate and to make progress. I hope that the Bill will become law and thereby change the lives of people in three sections of the community that I represent. I shall say more about that later, too.
	In a small way, it was an historic meeting. Coincidentally, the next day I had a meeting with the former Chancellor, now my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. The questions of whether we could afford regulation, and what model we should adopt, remained uncertain. I told the former Chancellor that the Transport Secretary wanted to make progress but that we needed the Treasury's agreement. We did not expect a blank cheque to pay for the proposals, but it was clear that there needed to be agreement and co-operation between the Departments involved if the scheme was to work.
	The then Chancellor said, "Stephen, I completely understand what you are saying. If we can't get a grip of this type of measure, what are we in government for?" That is precisely the task before us today—to take matters forward. In that regard, I commend both of the right hon. Friends to whom I have referred already, and also my right hon. Friend the Minister of State who opened the debate. She has taken up the story and brought the proposals to fruition.
	My right hon. Friend the former Transport Secretary said that the proper provision of transport was a matter of social justice for all our constituents, and I think that that puts the Bill in the right context. That is why I find the Opposition's response so surprising. As I said earlier, I made an election pledge to my constituents that a Bill along these lines would be brought in, but I did not anticipate that it would not get cross-party support. I was not expecting a fight, although now I am looking forward to it.
	This Bill divides the Government from the Opposition. The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers) will probably say that there is clear blue water between us. I welcome that, as it gives me an opportunity to explore the Opposition's lack of support for the Bill.
	The Opposition's approach is anti green, in that it rejects the idea of congestion charges—although I am more interested in the question of bus regulation. Their approach is also anti localism, in that it would take away discretion in this area from local authorities. The Opposition's approach is also very much centred around London and the south. It is anti the rest of the country, because the measure will help the parts of the country that are not London. It is a very small view. Of course, the Tories can make their electoral calculations. I do not know whether bus companies—Stagecoach and others—make electoral contributions to the Tory party; perhaps we could be told. That might be part of the story; I do not know. I am struggling to understand why the difference in opinion has come about. I do not think that I am the only one to have been taken by surprise by it.
	The reasoned amendment could not have been put in clearer terms. It is about re-regulation, as I call it—I know that that is not the Front Benchers' preferred phrase, but it is my shorthand—and refers to
	"preventing free competition between bus operators".
	That is where the Opposition have located themselves—they are not with the ordinary folk who need to use the buses, but completely on the other side. There is an issue to be teased out there.
	Let me come on to why I made the issue the subject of an election pledge, and the people who are contacting me in large numbers. We all have stories to tell about the issues that result in the biggest postbags. There are a range of such issues, and as I say, the issue at hand is one of them. As other right hon. and hon. Members will know, the subject is frustrating, because one cannot do anything about the problem. We can lobby and have discussions—I have had countless discussions with the private operators—but we do not get anywhere. The operators give us the flannel, and the public relations soft soap. They know that they have us over a barrel.
	I have said that three parts of my community are particularly affected. I shall give some insights into the stories that those people commonly tell. On the issue of surprise, hon. Members will no doubt have seen the Help the Aged briefing produced for Second Reading. It begins by saying that the organisation welcomes the Bill. Why is that? Well, it is no coincidence or surprise to me that one of the three groups of people in my constituency who come to see me in large numbers on the issue are the elderly, who are particularly affected by the sometimes rogue operation of private bus services. The elderly do not have choices; they simply have the bus service—or, more commonly, they do not have the bus service.
	Help the Aged gives a little example to show the unsatisfactory way in which the system interacts with the elderly. It mentions a community of elderly people who live at the bottom of a hill, and a bus service that was moved to the top of the hill. That has happened in my constituency. The people affected find it extremely difficult to get from the bottom of the hill to the top. It sounds so simple, but it is life-changing for those people. We are talking about an elderly community in sheltered housing, and those people's one means of getting out. Hon. Members have made the valuable point that bus services allow such people to get to the shops, to get a chance to go to hospital and to visit other parts of the constituency. Under the scheme that is to be introduced on 1 April, they will be able to get around the country, but without that, or if they feel excluded from getting on the bus, all those things are denied to them.
	Without being over-dramatic about it, one could say that the life chances of those elderly people were affected. They have put in, paid their taxes and brought up kids and grandkids. It is a time in their lives when things should be made easier rather than more difficult, and they should not be excluded by being unable to join in. The measure will enable us to get a grip of those issues. There will always be stresses and strains—other Members have spoken about quality contracts and the like—but there will be occasions when we can win. I hope there will be more occasions when we win than when we do not. We will have to see how the system operates.
	Another group in my constituency who wrote, making the case, although not in such large numbers, were mums with kids. Some took the kids to school and were trying to stop people driving Chelsea tractors to school, but more commonly, they were mums who do not have a car. Some took young children shopping with them. They reported that services that used to run in a way that helped their lives were cut off or late, or did not turn up, or were so unreliable as to make those trips not worth while.
	One could predict that those two groups would be affected by the lack of bus services, but the third group—young people—stunned me. While I was receiving correspondence and being lobbied by the first two groups, several mums came to see me independently. One mum told me that her 17-year-old daughter had gone to the pub in another village. Perhaps she should not have been going down to the pub, but I will not censure her for that. The girl had come out of the pub at 11 pm and gone to the bus stop on her own. She was waiting in a fairly isolated little village and the bus did not come.
	What can be done about a vulnerable young girl in that potentially horrible situation? It was not her fault. She had behaved responsibly. I could not get from the bus operator a sensible explanation of why that had happened or any recognition that there was anything wrong. I was told that it was one of those things. Fortunately in that case nothing happened, but we have all read about less happy outcomes. I do not want to be part of a system that inherently allows that to happen.
	I put on the record my thanks to my local passenger transport executive, Merseytravel, which for a number of years has been pushing for measures such as quality contracts. I look forward to the time when it becomes an integrated transport authority, stepping in in some of the cases that I have outlined. I welcome the Bill and I welcome what my right hon. Friend and others have done. I look forward to the fight in due course and to explaining the issue to my constituents, who will be amazed that there is still something to talk about.

Several hon. Members: rose —

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I inform hon. Members that Front-Bench speeches are due to start at 6.30 pm. Quite a few Members are still hoping to catch my eye; perhaps those speaking will bear that time in mind.

David Jones: First, I apologise for not having been here for the opening speeches; unfortunately, I have been engaged in the Welsh Grand Committee for most of the day.
	I am particularly anxious to speak in this debate as I wish to address the uniquely Welsh aspect of the Bill. It starts in clause 115, which is designed to create framework powers conferring legislative competence on the Welsh Assembly. It would do so by inserting a new matter in field 10 of part 1 of schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006, effectively conferring competence for the making, operation and enforcement of road charging schemes for vehicles on Welsh roads. That provision concerns me considerably, as no equivalent provision is proposed in respect of English roads. Indeed, Members will recall that when a similar proposal was mooted last year, it attracted opposition in the form of 1.7 million signatures on the Downing street website. Until recently, at least, it appeared that that had resulted in the proposal being abandoned.
	As with the framework powers inserted in the Planning Bill, the clauses on framework powers appear to have been inserted relatively late in the day. The proposal was not contained in the draft Bill that went out to consultation in May 2007 and could not therefore be considered by the Transport Committee when it performed pre-legislative scrutiny in summer last year.
	Furthermore, it is clear from the  Hansard record of a debate in another place that even in November last year, Ministers were not fully aware of the background to the proposal. Lord Bassam of Brighton dealt with the clause rather perfunctorily, saying:
	"All that I can say of value...at this stage is that the Welsh provisions were put in place very much at the behest of the Welsh Assembly. We aim to work very closely with Assembly Members in putting this legislation together."—[ Official Report, House of Lords, 20 November 2007; Vol. 696, c. 802.]
	Proposals to impose charges for the use of roads will inevitably cause concerns, and such concerns have been raised on several occasions in Welsh debates. The former Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), consistently sought to downplay the impact of the proposals by asserting, as he did during Welsh questions last year, that the powers sought by the Welsh Assembly Government were
	"not meant to impose nationwide tolls in Wales or anything of the kind...they are specifically targeted to help in specific instances, including the M4 relief road."—[ Official Report, 21 November 2007; Vol. 467, c. 1177.]
	We do not need to examine the clause in any great detail to see that if it is anything, it is not specifically targeted. Indeed, were it specifically targeted to create an M4 relief road by tolling, my party would have no objection to it.
	On 13 November last year, the Welsh Assembly Transport Minister gave a briefing to Members of this House. He made no mention at all of the M4 relief road, but said that the Assembly Government had been
	"looking at the debate across the UK over road pricing"
	but had not yet adopted policy to introduce road charges. However, he said that the Assembly Government would like the power to do so. In other words, that Government have no idea of the use to which they would put the road charging powers, but would nevertheless like those powers. The vagueness and opacity of that Government's stance was underlined by an Assembly Government statement, made by the same Minister on 4 December 2007. He said:
	"The Assembly Government has yet to decide what role, if any, road pricing may play in addressing current and future transport challenges.
	This power will however enable us to adopt a coherent approach towards any road pricing proposals that may come forward within Wales or any future UK scheme.
	The Bill makes clear that the revenues from any trunk road pricing scheme would have to be used for transport purposes in Wales."
	Clause 115 does indeed provide that the proceeds of any charges imposed for the use of roads in Wales would have to be applied
	"towards purposes relating to transport",
	but that is a particularly wide expression. In other words, the charges, or the proceeds of the charges, need not be applied to the infrastructure over which the road passes, or even to any other closely associated infrastructure—it can be used for any purpose related to transport.
	A particular worry of mine, expressed by Conservative peers in another place, is that such a provision effectively amounts to a tax-raising power in favour of the Assembly that goes beyond its competence as set out by the Government of Wales Act 2006. A Government spokesman in another place denied that that was the case, saying that the application of the proceeds of the charge to "purposes relating to transport" meant that it was not a tax because the proceeds would have to be applied for a defined purpose. However, I remain concerned that it would amount to a charge, given that although the proceeds of the scheme would have to be applied for "purposes relating to transport", there would be nothing to prevent the Welsh Assembly Government from applying the proceeds of the charge to the transport budget line and then removing from that budget line an equivalent sum freeing up the sum so released for purposes other than transport. That seems to amount to taxation by the back door and to go well beyond what was contemplated by the devolution settlement set out in the 2006 Act.
	My greatest concern, however, is that the imposition of the charge for the use of Welsh roads would amount to a significant additional financial burden on Welsh business. That fear is shared by industry representatives from across Wales. The Freight Transport Association says:
	"Our Welsh members are concerned that in using Wales as a guinea pig for this scheme, they are putting Welsh businesses and jobs at risk. For example, a company based in Cardiff pitching for business in Wiltshire may soon have to face a Cardiff congestion charge, Welsh road pricing and Avon road pricing schemes to deliver the products, versus a company based in Kent that would not. It would not be surprising who would get the contract for the work."
	North Wales Tourism—the organisation that represents hospitality businesses from across north Wales—points out that some 90 per cent. of holidaymakers arrive in north Wales by car, and states:
	"As a tourism membership organisation representing over 1,300 SMEs throughout North Wales and as a member of the Wales Tourism Alliance, we would strongly oppose the introduction of any road pricing schemes on any roads within Wales. Road pricing would most certainly have a detrimental impact on the tourism industry which is crucial to the economy of North Wales. Tourism contributes in excess of 15 billion pounds per annum to the local economy and provides employment for over 35,000 people. Road pricing for Wales in isolation would most certainly provide England and Scotland with a significant competitive edge. In North Wales one of our main competitors is England's Lake District and this would further divert business away from our region."
	NFU Cymru and the Farmers Union of Wales have expressed concern about the impact that road pricing would have on agriculture, which has recently been hit hard by foot and mouth disease and bluetongue and is a significant user of the road transport network.

Cheryl Gillan: Does my hon. Friend agree that if the clauses on Wales were altered in such a way that they pertained to a specific road relief scheme, we would have no problem with the legislation? The trouble is that even when the Plaid Cymru Minister came from the National Assembly to explain the provisions, at no time did he specifically mention a scheme. He has allowed a wide-reaching clause to be drafted, at his request, that will cause great difficulty to all road users in Wales if it is implemented and then acted on.

David Jones: My hon. Friend is quite right. Not only did that Minister make no mention of the M4 when he came to the House, but no mention was made of it in the Welsh Assembly Government's statement. As far as I can see, the only mention of the M4 relief road, which I would support, was made by the right hon. Member for Neath. It is one thing to propose a toll relief road, which I would support, and I believe that other Conservatives would, too, but it is an entirely different matter to impose trunk road charges throughout Wales that would significantly disadvantage the Welsh economy.
	The Freight Transport Association referred to Wales being used as a guinea pig for road pricing. Given the Chancellor's recent remarks in the Budget statement, when he said that he was setting aside funding to develop road pricing technology, the suspicion arises that Wales is again being used as a guinea pig. Wales was used as a guinea pig for council tax revaluation and rebanding, which was subsequently abandoned in England because it proved so unpopular in Wales. I am, therefore, very concerned at the inclusion of clause 115. If it were intended as a targeted measure, I would support it, but it is not. It would effectively be a tax on the use of Welsh roads.

Norman Baker: I would like to question whether Wales is a guinea pig. The issue in question is that the National Assembly is able to recoup funds and use them for transport purposes, but if we had a national road pricing scheme, which would follow from the guinea pig arrangements, money could be taken by the Exchequer in London to abolish road tax, for example. It would then be difficult for the Exchequer to take money that has already been allocated to the Welsh National Assembly.

David Jones: It certainly would be the case that Wales was used as a guinea pig. The simple fact remains that Welsh road users would have to pay for the use of the trunk road infrastructure in Wales, but that would not apply in England.
	If the Welsh Assembly has not yet developed a policy on road pricing, which appears to be the case from the statements I have seen from Welsh Assembly Ministers, there is no reason why it should not wait until the Chancellor's proposals have been developed on a UK-wide basis. At that stage, there can be a debate on road pricing in this House, which would no doubt be lively, and if the Government win the day, a uniform pricing structure could be imposed throughout England and Wales. But to disadvantage only Welsh business and Welsh road users is frankly unacceptable. I believe that the devolution of legislative competence to the Welsh Assembly is properly the subject of scrutiny in this House, and I do not believe that the proposals in the Bill stand up to such scrutiny. I therefore express my most serious reservations, and I strongly support the amendment.

Kerry McCarthy: rose—

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Kerry McCarthy: I am glad finally to have the opportunity to speak in this debate, and I am glad that my getting to my feet has been welcomed so warmly by some of my colleagues. My patience has been rewarded.
	I welcome the opportunity to speak because it is no exaggeration to say that the Bill could have more of an impact on the lives of my constituents in east Bristol than anything else we are debating in Parliament at the moment. That is because public transport is such a huge issue for them. It is interesting that we have heard three contributions so far from the Conservatives, and I think I am right in saying that there has been virtually no mention at all of public transport in their speeches.
	The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson), who is no longer in his place, focused on what he admitted was the narrow issue of the prosecution of owners of foreign vehicles. We have just heard a contribution from the hon. Member for Clwyd, West (Mr. Jones) that focused solely on the road-charging powers being given to the National Assembly for Wales. Earlier, we heard the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight), who is no longer in his place either—

Greg Knight: Yes I am.

Kerry McCarthy: I am sorry; I did not spot the right hon. Gentleman. His contribution was more than half an hour long, but was based, as far as I could see, entirely on the view of the motorist, and he cited a range of motorist organisations. Apart from making a plea for historic vehicles not to have to be adapted for wheelchair access, he made no mention of other public transport in his constituency. That says an awful lot about the priorities of Opposition Members.
	We have, however, heard some excellent speeches from some of my hon. Friends. That is because many of them recognise that public transport is a key factor in social inclusion and something that we must tackle if we are to address poverty and exclusion. That is certainly a factor in my constituency and in the Bristol conurbation as a whole, where congestion is a problem and road traffic is among the slowest in Britain. I have seen figures cited for the average speed of between 13 and 16 mph, but anyone who travels through Bristol in the rush hour will know that that is incredibly optimistic. Indeed, anyone who can manage 3 mph is doing quite well.
	We have also suffered from overcrowded and overpriced commuter rail services. A deal was recently reached with First Great Western to try to move that forward, but people who use the service to get to work in Bristol have faced serious problems. We also have an underused local branch line—the Severn Beach line—running through my constituency, which has suffered from endless cancellations. Somebody who misses the 5.30 am train and has to wait for the next one at 6.30 am will suffer incredibly and might lose their job. Thankfully, more frequent services are being introduced in May, but there is a lot of ground to be made up.
	The issue that I receive the most complaints about are the unreliable, overpriced and shabby bus services. It is no coincidence that my hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) and for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts) talked eloquently about the problems with bus services in their constituencies, because FirstBus runs the services there as well as in Bristol. I hope that the measures in the Bill will be able to address the problem.
	Unless we can sort out the public transport system, things will eventually just grind to a halt in Bristol. There is already a concern about businesses not wanting to be located in certain parts of Bristol, because it is impossible for people to get to work on time or even to get to work at all because of the cancellation of some services. People going to meetings spend a huge amount of time sitting in traffic jams. Business West is supportive of some of the measures in the Bill, because it hopes that they will address those issues.
	Employment is another key issue. We have a big regeneration project in the centre of Bristol called Cabot Circus, which will create about 4,000 new jobs. I hope that those jobs will be filled by people from the deprived inner-city wards that I represent and from some of the wards in Bristol, South which have comparatively high unemployment rates, too. However, as some of my hon. Friends said, unless people can be sure that they will be able to get to work on time and that there are bus services to the areas where they live, they will find it difficult to take up those jobs and to keep them. FirstBus's punctuality rate in the last period for which statistics are available, up to October-November 2007, is 80 per cent. That just is not good enough, because I would imagine that most of the 20 per cent. of occasions when FirstBus is not punctual are during peak times, which is when congestion is worst.
	The Government have a drive to get more lone parents into work when their children reach a certain age, which I support because we want to tackle child poverty. However, the Select Committee on Work and Pensions has just published a good report on that, and all the evidence shows that the issue for lone parents is not finding work in the first place, especially in Bristol, where there are some 10,000 vacancies in the economy. Rather, the issue is what is known as churn—people entering jobs but not being able to keep them. Sometimes that is because of the hidden costs associated with the jobs—for example, losing the right to free school meals or free prescriptions—but the cost and reliability of transport are also major factors, particularly for parents with child care responsibilities. They need to base their working lives around getting the kids to school on time, getting to work, then making sure that they are back at the school gate at 3.30 or 4 o'clock. Too many lone parents to whom I have spoken are finding that, because they cannot rely on the bus service, they are having to get cabs as a last resort. If they are working for not much more than the minimum wage, having to find a cab fare once or twice a week can make the difference between being better off in work—and being able to keep that employment—and deciding that they would be better off on benefits, despite all the associated long-term poverty that that would bring.
	I also want to mention a minor point about which I have received a number of complaints in my constituency. FirstBus has now introduced a no-change policy on its buses. If the bus driver did not have enough float to give a passenger the correct change, the passenger used to be able to use their ticket to claim the change from another driver or use their ticket on another service. I am not quite sure how the ticket was earmarked to show that they were owed that money, but they were able to claim it back in that way. FirstBus has now introduced a policy whereby the passenger has to go to a travel shop within a week to claim the money that they are owed. So if someone with child care responsibilities who is juggling a busy life pays for a £1 bus fare with a £10 note, and the driver is unable to give them change, they will have a week to go into the city centre to claim back the money. That is effectively taking the money out of their pocket, and they will also have to incur extra costs by going to collect their change. I have written to FirstBus about this, as I believe that that policy needs to be challenged.
	My hon. Friends the Members for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Clelland) and for City of Durham (Dr. Blackman-Woods) mentioned concessionary fares for young people. Representatives of the Youth Parliament and the Youth Cabinet in my constituency, and in Bristol as a whole, have also lobbied me about that matter, and I hope that it is something that we can investigate further.
	Some good progress has been made. We are considering a package of showcase bus routes in Bristol, and one that has recently opened runs through my constituency in east Bristol. The Department for Transport has earmarked about £42 million as a contribution towards the project. If all the proposed showcase bus routes across the West of England partnership area—not just in Bristol—come on track, there will be 35 to 40 new bus routes, which will make a major difference.
	However, a lot more needs to be done. This all hinges on the issue of integrated and strategic leadership. That is why I believe that the provisions in the Bill on integrated transport authorities are so important for such places as Bristol. If we look at all the things we could do to improve transport, we find that most of them will be very difficult to achieve unless the four local authorities that work together on the local transport plan can do so in a much more co-ordinated way than they do at the moment. For example, a long time ago, there were plans for about 19 park-and-ride schemes around the outskirts of Bristol. Obviously, Bristol would have been the beneficiary of those schemes, in that the congestion there tends to be the result of people travelling into the city to work, to shop or for leisure activities. However, it was impossible to get the agreement of the local authorities that surround Bristol to base the park-and-ride schemes in those areas. In the end, about three schemes were established before the whole thing ground to a halt. If those four local authorities could work together in a more co-ordinated way, there would be a significantly greater chance of setting up more of those schemes.
	We also need to try to achieve a significant increase in rail capacity, once the current problems with the franchise have been sorted out. Most people accept that the franchise that was entered into when First Great Western won the bid met the current demand but did not anticipate future demand. I believe that there is a lot of latent demand, and that if we run better rail services and increase capacity, many more people would be prepared to use the trains than at the moment.
	The most important issue relates to buses, however. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough and, I think, my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mrs. Curtis-Thomas) spoke of the advantages of having a transport authority that could introduce improvements to bus services. Bristol has certainly reached the stage at which a quality partnership or, probably, a quality contract will be the solution. It is quite clear that deregulation has not worked; I get more complaints about bus services than almost any other local issue. If we can move towards having an integrated transport authority for what is known as CUBA—the counties that used to be Avon—we can start to look at how we can exert more control over our bus services.
	Let me finish by dealing with congestion charging. I occasionally receive letters from constituents complaining about the possibility of such charging and my past support for it. The authors of every one of those letters have in common a lack of faith in the public transport system, which is why they insist on their right to use their cars. There is always the problem of whether we are putting the cart before the horse, but the money raised from pilot schemes dealing with hypothecation can be put into improving public transport. That is a really good move, but we also need to ensure that some of the money comes through for things like the showcase bus routes first. Unless we have done something significantly to improve the bus services as well, when we start charging people it will cause a huge amount of resentment.
	Finally, on the two issues of the integrated transport authority and road charging, many business groups in my constituency are certainly very supportive, as long as the policies are implemented properly. As the Bill passes through Parliament, I hope that it will give us the power to take action on both those fronts.

Lee Scott: I apologise for not being in my place for all of this debate, but I have been serving on the Transport Committee this afternoon. I would like to make just two brief points that I have also raised in that Select Committee in the past. The first is about congestion charging.
	I want to make it clear that I am not against the principle of congestion charging in any shape or form. What I am against, however, is using congestion charging as a means of taxation, particularly when it does not ease congestion or take into account the consultation that is supposed to happen before it is introduced. I am, of course, referring to congestion charging in London, which could be applicable elsewhere. If congestion charging is brought in to ease road congestion—that is obviously what it is meant to do—that is fine, but there must be full consultation at local level, which must then be taken into account. That has certainly not been the case in London. I can vouch for this personally, as I drive here two days a week and use London transport for the rest of the week, so I know that congestion has not eased in any way—and nothing will convince me otherwise. I believe that people should be honest about the reasons for introducing congestion charging.
	That brings me, secondly, to the conditions in which people are expected to travel. We currently experience conditions of travel—I am thinking of my constituents in Ilford, North, but this is applicable across London and, indeed, across much of our country—that are so bad that it would be illegal to transport animals in them. I am not being over-dramatic about that; I am being exact. Standing with someone else's chin in one's face in absolutely abysmal conditions is terrible; and paying an exorbitant amount of money for that privilege makes it worse. What I therefore want is quality local transport that people wish to travel on. That will truly ease the congestion and allow the congestion charge to do what it is meant to do and make things better for all.
	I wish to add one brief final point, which I believe my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) raised in my absence. It is to do with foreign vehicles on our roads and how the enforcement of the congestion charge and other matters can be carried out in respect of those vehicles. There are increasing numbers of foreign vehicles on our roads. In some cases, they are not fit to be on our roads, because they have not had the equivalent of our MOT done in their own country and they cause a variety of hazards. Yet their owners do not pay fines and do not obey our laws, which surely need to be enforced. If it could be carried out, enforcement would make a vast difference across our country. It would contribute more income and would help to make the congestion charge fair for owners of all vehicles alike.
	I did not want to take up much of the House's time today; I just wanted to raise those few points.

Judy Mallaber: I very much welcome the Bill and am pleased to have an opportunity to take part in the debate. I was in the Chamber for the introductory speeches, and am sorry that I missed the middle part of the debate. I am as amazed as my hon. Friends—our amazement is shared by Liberal Democrat Members—at the opposition of Conservative Members to the Bill. It seems perverse and strange. The Tory script about road pricing is also becoming slightly monotonous.
	Derbyshire has some good-quality local partnerships, but I know the frustrations of its public transport unit and councillors about the limitations on what they can do to preserve, promote and save bus services when operators want to pull the plug or jack up fares. Other Members have quoted examples of such frustrations, and how they have had to be dealt with. I want to focus on the Bill's community transport provisions, which have been mentioned only briefly: clauses 52 to 54, which amend sections 19 and 22 of the Transport Act 1985.
	I come to the debate via discussions of the concessionary fares scheme, its impact on community transport in Derbyshire and how to retain the excellent gold card scheme promoted by the excellent Labour county council—a scheme that is well in advance of our very good new national scheme. Last night, my hon. Friends the Members for High Peak (Tom Levitt) and South Derbyshire (Mr. Todd), with whom I have worked closely on the matter, flew the flag, and I want to carry on today by explaining some of the connections.
	Just before I came into the debate, I spoke to the chief executive of Amber Valley community transport, who described the Bill as a "lifeline" for our local dial-a-bus services. I shall come back to explain why that is the case. It is partly because of the way in which Derbyshire services operate, which might not be the same as other community transport services. I applaud community transport, which is itself a lifeline for many people who would otherwise be isolated at home and unable to access commercial scheduled services. Anything that can be done to promote that service, which the Bill does by providing additional flexibility, is very important.
	Amber Valley community transport was founded in 1986, when it managed to get three staff and a small group of volunteers. It mushroomed, and today has 18 vehicles, a staff of 40 and support from more than 100 volunteers. It operates dial-a-bus, dial-a-ride, rural bus challenge and contract services for groups. In Amber Valley alone, it transports more than 1,500 people a week on 250 journeys, with 36 different scheduled services. Dial-a-bus has 500 trips a week to eight different towns. Eight community transport services in Derbyshire all operate on a similar basis.
	A complex range of services is provided to a large number of people, and that is why it is pleasing that the Bill contains provisions enabling the community transport sector to have more flexibility in relation to two aspects: the vehicles that can be used and allowing drivers of community bus services to be paid. That will have an important impact. I will return to the impact on our dial-a-bus services and concessionary fare schemes, but I will give another example of how the new provisions will help.
	Clause 52 would remove the current restriction that prevents the use of public service vehicles with fewer than nine seats under a section 19 permit. The effect will be that younger drivers, who have licences to drive but not necessarily for larger vehicles, will be able to operate scheduled community transport services. That will provide a broader range of drivers who can operate dial-a-ride services for, say, single wheelchair users, not the large buses. That will greatly increase the number of people who can use that service, which individuals pay for, but at a subsidised rate. That service provides assistance to a large number of people in our area. That is the first example of how the flexibility can be used.
	The second example relates to the relaxation on volunteer drivers. That is important for us because we have an excellent gold card scheme, operated county-wide, under which the dial-a-bus schemes in Derbyshire have been brought within the free fares scheme. That might have been lost because of the difficulties of translating it into a new scheme. Our services in Derbyshire differ from those in many other areas because they are scheduled—there are 36 different scheduled services in Amber Valley alone—and have printed timetables.
	I first got involved in the scheme with my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak when community transport came to us and said, "Why don't we get the fuel duty rebate? We run scheduled, registered services, according to a printed timetable. If we were a commercial service, we would be getting fuel duty rebate, but because we're not, we don't." We trailed around Transport Ministers—they kept changing at the time; I am pleased that we now have a bit of stability—and eventually, to our great delight, a Budget came along that extended the fuel duty rebate to community transport.
	The argument is relevant to this debate. It seemed unreasonable to say that because someone was disabled or elderly with mobility problems, that person could not get on to a scheduled bus service and would therefore have to pay more, because, unlike with a commercial service, there was no fuel duty rebate for the services used. Why should it also be the case that that person cannot access the concessionary fares scheme when we have scheduled services with printed timetables?
	The services are demand-responsive. If a commercial operator bought an adapted mini-bus and was prepared to pick up in isolated areas, it could register as a demand-responsive service under the concessionary fares scheme. Yet community transport could not register under the scheme even though it has a timetabled service that picks up disabled and elderly customers for shopping trips to local towns. It uses volunteers to assist in doing that, and I have travelled on those buses and helped those people on their shopping trips. It is an important lifeline for them to get their shopping every week. However, by virtue of the Bill and extremely useful discussions with Transport Ministers and officials, we have ensured that the Bill recognises paid drivers, which means that our dial-a-bus services will be registered section 22 services. As they have organised and regular scheduled timetables, they will be eligible to come under the concessionary fares scheme with a few adaptations. I thank Ministers for giving us that flexibility and enabling us to do that.
	One of the most important things to come out of that is the need to have partnerships, which is why the Opposition's opposition to the Bill is so bizarre. The whole point is to promote partnerships. My little example of how it will help our community transport services highlights the partnership that we have developed on our new scheme with excellent help from Transport Ministers and officials and a visionary Labour county council, which helped to develop and support it in the first place. The council has agreed to retain the subsidy to community transport while it moves on to the new system. That is very important. Derbyshire county council is excellent. It always gets top ratings in the Audit Commission reports, not just for transport, but across the board. It is a fine example, particularly as a former Conservative Prime Minister was extremely keen to get rid of it. Derbyshire county council was a real bête noire of previous Conservative Governments, and it is interesting that it is now one of the councils that is most applauded by the Audit Commission.
	The partnership between the Government, a Labour county council and an excellent community transport service—its staff and volunteers are brilliant—is what we need to make progress. They are helping people to stop being isolated and get out of their homes, and providing a range of services that are critical to the social mobility, fairness and justice that we say we want. I believe that those are the most important developments that the Bill and our transport system could bring about, and I applaud all the elements that have made them possible. I hope that we shall go from strength to strength in developing and expanding our bus services even further.

Rob Marris: I welcome the Bill. My constituency contains a metropolitan authority, and I have some interest in transport because I am one of the few Members, if not the only Member, who used to be a bus driver. I drove a bus for three years before entering the House. However, I appreciate that the Bill is not just about buses.
	I was very saddened by the speech of the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers). I have done quite a lot of work with the hon. Lady on Finance Bills. We have worked on two or three so far, and she has shown herself to be thoughtful and well prepared. However, most—although not all—of her speech today revealed that the Conservative party's transport policy, particularly on public transport, is an absolute shambles.
	The hon. Lady said that the higher patronage of London buses had much more to do with subsidies than with regulation. Nevertheless, perhaps understandably, she would not commit her party to increased subsidies in metropolitan districts such as mine in the west midlands, where subsidies are far lower than in London—unfairly, I must tell Ministers. That represents a contradiction in the Conservative party's policy. Another contradiction is that the hon. Lady said that she wanted competition laws to be amended so that discussions could take place between operators on co-ordination—I stress that she was not suggesting the introduction of cartels—although the Conservative amendment seeks
	"free competition between bus operators".
	The hon. Lady said that voluntary arrangements were preferable to statutory ones, and that because many voluntary arrangements around the country were working well, we did not need statutory arrangements for quality contracts and so on. At the same time, however, she readily agreed—I think that the facts are blindingly obvious to all of us—that bus patronage outside London, particularly in the metropolitan areas, had fallen. That is a third contradiction.
	A key factor on which I think there is general agreement among Labour Members, although apparently there is none on the Conservative Front Bench, is that regulation has been a major factor in increasing bus patronage in London, although it is not the only factor. I readily concede to the hon. Lady and her party that the increased subsidies in London have been helpful, which is why I would like them to operate in my metropolitan area in the west midlands and other metropolitan areas. She said that she preferred voluntary arrangements to statutory ones, but as patronage has fallen outside London, the availability of voluntary contracts has clearly not worked very well in the rest of the country.

Stewart Jackson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Rob Marris: I will give way briefly.

Stewart Jackson: The hon. Gentleman is right: there is unity among Labour Members in terms of their visceral, anti-competitive approach and their desire for enforced top-down bureaucracy and regulation. However, it is a bit of a cheek to lecture us on disunity and not having a consistent policy when some of his colleagues have said that the system will not work because it will marginalise the authority and autonomy of local councillors. Some of them have said that they would rather have quangocrats running their bus services. That represents a lack of consistency on his side of the House.

Rob Marris: The hon. Gentleman brings me nicely to my next point. The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet said that her party strongly opposed clause 104 because she wanted the consultation requirement to be strengthened, but let us consider the changes that clause 104 would introduce. The explanatory notes state that the clause
	"does not affect the existing powers, also contained in section 170"—
	of the Transport Act 2000—
	"for local authorities to decide for themselves to consult on or hold inquiries into such schemes."
	This is of relevance to a point made by the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson). Clause 104 addresses removing top-down measures and it says that local areas can still hold inquiries, but that is decried by his Front-Bench colleagues. That is another contradiction in their position.
	The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet said she wanted a greater number of voluntary arrangements, but she also said that a deregulated bus system is the best way of proceeding. Labour Members do not want it both ways, but she does. Either she wants these voluntary arrangements, and a light-touch competition law so there can be discussion between operators, or she does not. Her reasoned amendment says she wants free competition, and she also says that a deregulated bus system is the best way. I do not believe that a deregulated bus system is the best way. History has shown us that since 1986.
	I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for having been so generous in taking interventions from many Members, including me. I intervened on her when she said that funds raised by local congestion charging projects should stay local and be devoted to transport. That sounds awfully like hypothecation to me, and when she kindly let me intervene, I asked her whether the Conservative party is now in favour of hypothecation. I have an open view on hypothecation, but the leading Opposition party ought to have a clear position one way or the other on it, because she cannot have a little bit of hypothecation; it is a principle, and either her party agrees and buys into the principle, or it does not.

Theresa Villiers: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Rob Marris: I shall do so in a moment.

Angela Smith: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Rob Marris: No, because of lack of time.
	I was not aware that the Conservative party had embraced hypothecation until the hon. Lady spoke. I put that to her in an intervention, and she said that this was not going to be hypothecation. I cannot see what it is in that case; it seems to be a big contradiction.

Theresa Villiers: It is the Government who have claimed that the money raised will be devoted to local transport projects. I want to hold them to that promise and make sure that they cannot wriggle out of it.

Rob Marris: The hon. Lady said earlier today that she and her colleagues will test the relevant clauses strongly in Committee, to do all that they can to ensure that no such circumvention is possible and the funds stay local and remain devoted to transport. That is not simply saying, "I want to keep the Government on the hook"; it is saying, "Our policy is to have these local funds kept locally." That might be a good idea, but it is hypothecation. The Conservative party has embraced hypothecation, certainly on transport. That is a new policy from its Front Bench, and when I heard it I was somewhat taken aback—and I was further taken aback when I was told that it was not hypothecation. All Labour Members were a bit surprised when the hon. Lady said that.
	The Bill is welcome. It will be welcomed in metropolitan areas such as the west midlands, and it is sad that Her Majesty's Opposition have a policy which is a complete shambles and full of contradictions. It demonstrates once again that they are not fit for government.

Stephen Hammond: May I first put on record my thanks to the Minister for inviting me to a meeting with her officials last week to discuss some of the issues in the Bill?
	The Minister treated us to a rose-tinted opening to this debate, frequently ignoring both history and reality. The history that bus patronage fell fastest between 1950 and the mid-'80s was conveniently sidestepped. The important fact that investment in our bus fleet is now at its highest was forgotten. A lot of the time the Minister was, like her Government, mired in complacency.
	Over the last two years, I have had the pleasure to participate in six Westminster Hall debates on buses.  [Interruption.] Is the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer) laughing? If so, that is because they follow a predictable pattern of which both he and I are aware. Labour Members rant ancient socialism and bureaucratic central control, and do not want to listen to examples of where partnerships are working. I then cite examples of where those partnerships are working and where bus services are improving and have improved, and we all troop off to do something else afterwards, no one having convinced anyone of anything. Today, we will follow that pattern. I could have exactly predicted so many of the contributions from Labour Members, and interesting though those were, they failed to convince anyone.
	The contributions that I heard from my hon. Friends were interesting. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) gave a typically coherent and clear speech exposing the flaws in the Government's position on road pricing. He talked clearly about the impact of the coercion of local authorities by national Government with no regard to local transport needs.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) made a number of interesting points about the need for tighter restriction on foreign-registered vehicles. My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, West (Mr. Jones) raised well-founded concerns about the clauses on Wales and the possibility that the Bill would be a way of introducing tax-raising powers for the Welsh Assembly. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Scott) made a short speech, which included the important point about the need to consult on congestion charge schemes.
	I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker). He was quick to criticise my hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers) by saying that she was making an incoherent argument, but at no stage did he answer her principal reasoning, which was that quality contracts and statutory quality partnerships have not been taken up because so many people have realised that they cannot be taken up, that they are wrong-headed and that they are not the way forward. He failed to give any answer to that point
	The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) told us that she would make a brief contribution, and at one stage during it she talked about buses being the No. 1 issue in her postbag. The No. 1 issue in my postbag and in that of the majority of my hon. Friends is some of the failings of her Government: her Government closing local post offices without regard; her Government causing chaos on welfare and tax credits; and her Government's inability to grasp the problems of the immigration system. Those are the top three issues in my postbag.  [Interruption.]
	The hon. Member for West Bromwich somewhere —[Laughter.] The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) mentions buses in Wimbledon, and he, of course, brings me on to the real problem with them: the fact that Transport for London is a regional body, not a local one. When the suggestion was recently made that it needs to space out some of the bus stops to help with particular problems in respect of children waiting outside our town centre, it failed to listen. We do have problems with buses in Wimbledon—

Rob Marris: You need more central regulation.

Stephen Hammond: No, I do not want regional authorities to be involved.
	The hon. Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) made an interesting contribution, notable for two things—his failure to condone under-age drinking and his indication that he makes election promises that he does not keep. I guess that that will be noted by voters at the next general election.
	The Local Transport Bill covers a broad array of topics, ranging from commercial bus services to road pricing, community transport and local transport governance. It is not a technical Bill; it is a wide-ranging Bill that has a wide-ranging impact on local transport in this country. As my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire said, it is a proverbial curate's egg; it is good in parts, but thoroughly objectionable elsewhere. The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) said that it is bad manners to eat an egg whole—it would certainly be bad manners to eat this egg whole.
	On average, each person makes 1,000 trips each year, 40 per cent. of which are of less than 2 miles in length. Although it is true that people travel further and more frequently than before, a large number of those trips are over a short distance. The key to delivering successful local transport plans lies in delivering measures that generally and genuinely deliver a modal shift from cars to public transport. That can be achieved only through providing services and infrastructure that address the transport needs of the public. Put simply, the public must be taken where they want to go, when they want to go, in a safe and convenient manner—this Government have failed to do that at any stage during that past 10 years.
	With those points in mind, I shall consider some of the Bill's provisions in the short time available. It would amend the duties of local transport authorities in terms of producing and implementing local transport plans, and provides that the policies must cover all aspects of transport, rather than only transport facilities and services as currently required. Under the Bill, those policies must also take into account the protection and improvement of the environment. Considerably more detail must be provided on that requirement.
	The key point is that a local plan can be effective only if it is truly local. It will not be effective if it is tainted by flawed national objectives and ambitions imposed by national Government on local transport plans, as we have seen happen so often in the past 10 years. In its scrutiny of the draft Bill, the Transport Committee rightly made the point that the over-prescription of guidance has increased the costs and production time of local transport plans without creating any greater certainty about funding fulfilment or delivery. We want to avoid a situation in which the Government provide extra funding through local transport plans and seek to override local aspects of such plans—we saw that happen with the transport innovation fund. That is ill advised, as several of my hon. Friends pointed out in the debate.
	The Bill would give the Secretary of State the power in future to increase the number of passenger transport authorities—or integrated transport authorities as they will be known. The new integrated transport authorities will have the sole responsibility for writing local transport plans in their area. It will be important to understand the new role and functions of those bodies and to determine whether the change of name is anything more than a cosmetic exercise.
	A further element of transport governance that the Bill will change is the role of traffic commissioners. The Bill seeks to establish a new statutory office of senior traffic commissioner. In theory, that could help make more effective the important work done by the traffic commissioner network, but there must be doubts surrounding the extent to which the Secretary of State can issue guidance to the senior traffic commissioner who can then issue directions and guidance to other traffic commissioners. It will be important to know the exact extension of the power of the traffic commissioners and whether they are suitable to undertake their new roles. Indeed, the Government must confirm to what extent they expect traffic commissioners to have a role in economic regulation.
	Several hon. Members have mentioned road pricing. The Government's position on that seems to change from ministerial speech to ministerial speech. We have U-turn followed by U-turn, so we can truly say that the Government are running around in circles. The Government's position in the Bill was excellently explored by my hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet earlier—they dither on road pricing, but there cannot be any confusion about our policy on it. We have been clear from the outset that we agree with the 1.8 million people who signed the Downing street petition, and we will oppose any proposals for a spy in the sky national road pricing scheme.
	The Minister claimed several times that we were not listening to the people. Well, on this issue the Minister and her Government are clearly not listening to them. A national scheme is unpopular and unrealistic, but I suspect that road user charging or an increased use of tolls may well be part of the Government's strategy for tackling congestion. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North made clear, these schemes must be local and require local consent and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire pointed out, they must not be used as the Trojan horse for a national road pricing scheme.
	The Bill proposes to establish on a statutory footing a passenger watchdog for buses. In principle, we welcome that move, as we have seen that it works well in the rail industry. The key question is what form the new body will take, now that the Government consultation on the subject has ended. The National Consumer Council is right to make it clear that the body should have a remit to improve bus travel and advocacy. We support that position.
	We have heard several notable contributions on community transport. The Bill aims to support the further development of the community transport sector by removing unnecessary restrictions and by strengthening the system for issuing permits to community transport providers. That is a welcome move and any proposals that help to strengthen the community transport sector will enjoy our support.
	The key part of the Bill is about quality partnerships and contracts. The Government have recognised that the fundamental driver behind improvements to local bus services is an effective partnership between the local authority and the operator. In the draft consultation, "Putting Passengers First", the Government said:
	"A key ingredient of success has been effective partnership".
	That can be seen up and down the country. We have cited the case several times already, but one needs merely to ask operators in Brighton and Hove how they have achieved 50 per cent. growth and they will say that it is down to a good working partnership with the local authority.
	Operators invest in higher quality services, new vehicles and staff training, and local authorities invest in traffic management schemes to give buses priority and to provide better bus stations, shelters and passenger information.

Norman Baker: There are indeed effective partnerships, but what is the hon. Gentleman's answer for the ineffective partnerships or those that are entirely absent?

Stephen Hammond: Clearly, problems in the bus industry need to be addressed. It is absolutely clear that re-regulation by local authorities that imposes on operators or local communities something that might or might not be appropriate is not the way forward.

Clive Betts: The hon. Gentleman comes from a party that is supposed to favour local democracy and empower local communities. He has just talked about local authorities imposing on communities. What happens if there is demand in a local community for the introduction of a quality contract? Would the hon. Gentleman allow the community to have its say?

Stephen Hammond: The hon. Gentleman talks about localism. My hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet answered that point earlier. Localism is not just about local authorities; it can be about local communities, too.
	Bus patronage outside London is declining, but it has been declining since 1945—a long time before the bus industry was deregulated in the 1980s. In fact, deregulation saw a stabilisation of bus patronage. Many hon. Members will remember that the last major transport legislation in 2000 failed to deliver the rail capacity increases that we needed, delivered only two out of 25 tram schemes and failed in its road objectives. Many people across the House should be concerned that this Bill will follow that history and will be an equally huge failure.
	We support some parts of the Bill, but its major thrust causes us concern. Our reasoned amendment says to the Government, "Take the Bill away. Think harder about those sections." Our position is perfectly right, proper and principled, in contrast to the feigned surprise of the Minister. Our amendment will ensure that the Bill can be improved, as it should be, and I urge hon. Members to support the amendment.

Jim Fitzpatrick: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), a fellow London MP. We enjoy excellent bus services in this great capital city, courtesy of TFL and on behalf of Mayor Livingstone and the citizens of London, in contrast to the various bus experiences that we have heard from hon. Members from different parts of the country.
	This has been an interesting and wide-ranging debate on important legislation. As has been said, the purpose of the Bill is to empower local authorities not only to transform local transport in their areas but to provide transport that is better designed around the needs of their communities. Many right hon. and hon. Members have spoken about the importance of buses to their constituents and the progress that has been made in the past decade on reversing the downward trend in patronage that this Government inherited in 1997.

Kerry McCarthy: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Jim Fitzpatrick: If my hon. Friend will allow me, I shall make some progress. If I have some time at the end, I shall be happy to give way. I have a 50-minute speech to fit into 15 minutes, which will not be possible.
	Hon. Members have also spoken about the need to do still more to empower their local communities, so that people get the quality of service that they deserve. The Bill will allow local authorities to do just that.
	I shall respond to some of the points made in the debate before making some concluding remarks to reinforce why the Bill should be read a Second time and why the Opposition's amendment should be voted down. My hon. Friend the Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Clelland), who spoke first after the Front-Bench speeches, said that he would speak briefly, but he spoke strongly about his constituents' experiences, including those of his visitors today from Gateshead. He explained in detail why he supported the Bill.
	The hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), speaking from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, agreed with my right hon. Friend the Minister of State that the Tory position of opposing the Bill through their amendment is quite incredible. Between them, they very effectively exposed the weakness of the Conservative position. The Opposition say that regulation plays no part in London's success, but will not commit themselves to deregulating. The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers) cites Brighton and Hove as a good example of success, but omits to mention that Brighton and Hove council supports the Bill, as do many other local authorities including, I believe, Conservative ones.
	The hon. Member for Lewes made a number of points. He stated that unelected members should not be given a vote on the integrated transport authorities. The intention behind the Bill is that it will be for authorities in an area to review whether an ITA's membership should include persons other than representatives of the local authorities that make up the ITA area, and what the voting arrangements should be. In making appointments to an ITA, authorities will be bound by the political balance requirements of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 and other relevant legislation.
	The hon. Gentleman asked whether the traffic commissioners have the expertise to take on their new bus roles. I am sure that he is aware that they already have significant powers in the bus sector. For example, they have the power to issue operator licences in the bus and coach sector. Details of all local bus services must be registered with the local traffic commissioner, and they have a remit to investigate if bus services have been registered but are not being run properly and to take action against operators when things are going wrong. They will not be taking on new work in a vacuum; they are highly professional decision makers, experienced in applying the law, and have earned the respect of the industry through their expertise and experience.
	The hon. Gentleman asked whether the Bill will change bus services that are working well. He and other hon. Members mentioned Brighton and Hove, Cambridge, Norfolk and so on. This is an enabling Bill, giving local authorities the powers that they need to improve their bus services. As such, there is no requirement on authorities to make any changes. If they feel that bus services in their area are working well, they will simply not use the powers available to them. Of course, at any later date they will be able to use the powers that the Bill devolves to them if they feel that changes are needed.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) graphically described the problems that her constituents are experiencing and the importance of the Bill to them. She said that this issue was at the top of their agenda, and I commend the amount of work that she has done to ensure that their concerns are raised effectively. She made a number of points, many of which will be dealt with in Committee. Specifically, she asked for clarification of the public interest determination. The quality contracts schemes and how public interest will be determined by the approvals board are contained in clause 19, which sets out the clear public interest criteria that must be met in making a scheme. The Department will publish guidance to assist both local authorities and the approvals board. Indeed, we published the first draft of that guidance in December.

Clive Efford: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Jim Fitzpatrick: If my hon. Friend will allow me, I shall make some progress. I will try to give way toward the end of my speech.
	The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet and the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) claimed that the Bill watered down the requirements for consultation on local road charging. However, local charging authorities will retain all their existing powers to consult interested persons and the public, and to hold local inquiries.
	The Bill merely removes the Secretary of State's powers to consult and hold an inquiry, and to require a local charging authority to do the same. Those powers were needed when the Secretary of State had the role of approving local services, as they enabled her to ensure that a proper local consultation process or inquiry had been held in connection with a scheme that had come before her for approval. However, in the absence of that approval role, there is no need for the Secretary of State to interfere in decisions by a local authority about what is best for its area.
	The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet and the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire also claimed that the Bill was about national road pricing. It is not: the implementation of any such scheme would require further legislation, and the fact that more than 80 per cent. of current congestion is in urban areas means that that is where the immediate priority lies. The Bill focuses on giving local authorities greater freedom so that they can tackle their local congestion problems.
	The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire also asked for clarification about historic vehicles, in which I know that he has a keen interest. Clause 50 makes it clear that the use of historic buses for tourists would not be prohibited: its provisions apply only to taxis and private-hire vehicles that are used to provide local bus services and which are deemed to be wheelchair accessible. Accessibility will be determined by the local authority, in accordance with any guidance issued by the Secretary of State. I hope that that clarification satisfies the right hon. Gentleman.
	The amendment says that the Bill should be denied a Second Reading because it
	"encourages...Quality Contract Schemes...fails to give due weight to...consultation and local consent...and because it transfers revenue-raising powers to the National Assembly for Wales".
	The Bill gives local authorities a range of options to choose from, according to their local circumstances. Where partnerships are working, they can continue to flourish, but where they are failing to deliver real improvements in services—as is demonstrably the case in some areas—it is important that local authorities have other options at their disposal to deliver improvements that will benefit passengers. That is why quality contracts schemes need to be a more realistic option, and why the Bill will enable quality partnership schemes to cover service frequencies, timings and fares.
	On local road charging schemes, it is right that decisions designed to tackle congestion should be taken at a local level. It is clearly important that local authorities consult those who would be affected by a scheme, but they must determine how best to engage with interest groups in their areas. Moreover, it is not novel to transfer revenue-raising powers to the National Assembly for Wales; it is already open to the Scottish Parliament to make provision for trunk road charging in Scotland. Any proposals for charging on Welsh trunk roads would be subject to full scrutiny by the National Assembly.
	After the distractions posed by road pricing, my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer) returned the Chamber's attention to the Bill's central concern—the provision of decent bus services. He asked a number of questions about the details of the Bill, and he gave notice that he would return to those details in Committee. I am sure that he will do so.
	The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) made his usual thoughtful contribution, and we are grateful for his qualified assessment of the Bill's usefulness, and for his statement that he would support it this evening.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell) then delivered a stinging rebuke of deregulation. In response to an intervention, he explained to the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) that the blame for poor bus services could be laid at the door of previous Conservative Governments. He offered an analogy with arson, saying that one does not blame the fire brigade that tackles an arson fire: instead, one blames the arsonist responsible for it.
	As an ex-fireman, that analogy had real appeal for me, but my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey added that it was deregulation that had caused the problems with bus services, and that is something that we are dealing with. He then detailed the work that he was doing with, and on behalf of, his constituents to improve his local bus services. I acknowledge his concerns about procedures, and his final comment was that we should "end the nightmare", as he described it.
	The hon. Member for Peterborough raised a series of legitimate road safety concerns, but I was somewhat confused by the fact that although he asked us to go further in relation to the clauses he mentioned, he is declining to support giving the Bill a Second Reading. That just does not make sense to me.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts) made a powerful contribution detailing his and his constituents' experiences, good and bad. He expressed his support in general terms, and also expressed his aspirations for more support for proposals including that for a successful Sheffield tram.
	The hon. Member for Rochdale (Paul Rowen) raised the issue of bus company subsidies and encouraged the Government to look more seriously at finding solutions on quality contracts this time. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) told us about his election address and about writing to the previous Secretary of State for Transport on the issue. I congratulate him on his success, and I expect that he will want to secure a place on the Bill Committee, to ensure that he fully delivers for his constituents. He clearly described the political dividing lines on the Bill, and I hope that the Bill proves a useful campaign tool for him, as well as satisfying his electorate. I am sure that the description he gave of the Conservative party being on the side of the bus operators, while he is on the side of the passengers, will resonate with the good people of Wirral, West.
	My very patient hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, East (Kerry McCarthy) got an opportunity to raise the issues of concern to her. She compared transport to other essentials for her constituents, and especially mentioned parents who are juggling work and child care. She demonstrated how in touch she is with her constituents, describing the problems encountered in Bristol and explaining why the Bill is important, not least to young people. She raises transport issues, including cycling issues, regularly with the Department, and I am sure that she welcomed the Secretary of State's recent funding statement. My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Judy Mallaber) and my hon. Friend the bus driver from Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) were the last Government Back Benchers to speak; they reinforced the arguments on the need for the Bill.
	The hon. Member for Clwyd, West (Mr. Jones) raised Welsh issues, and the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet made much of the framework powers. Those powers were introduced at the specific request of Ministers in the Welsh Assembly Government. The Bill devolves a new framework power to the National Assembly that will enable it to make provision about charging on Welsh trunk roads. There is nothing novel about that, as I said earlier. It is already open to the Scottish Parliament to make provision for trunk road charging in Scotland. The Bill does not allow for charging on all roads in Wales. Charging on local authority roads—95 per cent. of the Welsh road network—would remain a matter for the relevant local authorities, not the Welsh Assembly Government.
	Ministers in the Assembly Government have made it clear that if they were to propose charging on trunk roads in Wales, it would be specifically in the context of new road developments in the areas with the worst congestion problems. Furthermore, it would be for the National Assembly for Wales to consider whether it would be appropriate to exercise the powers, and if so, how to do so. That would be done through making what is called an Assembly measure. Any measure would have to be debated by the Assembly and would be subject to its scrutiny procedures. We are absolutely clear that those powers do not enable tax-raising. The Government of Wales Act 2006 does not allow tax-raising powers to be devolved, and clause 115 of the Bill makes it clear that it deals with schemes for imposing charges.
	I have not had a chance to speak about the passenger champion—an issue raised by hon. Members on both of the Chamber—or the detail of other aspects of the Bill. As I say, I have a 50-minute speech and fewer than 15 minutes in which to deliver it, so much will be done in Committee.
	In conclusion, the Bill makes real the Government's commitment to devolving greater powers and responsibility to local authorities. It does so in respect of three areas—local bus services, local transport governance and local road charging schemes. It is only by creating those real, new opportunities for local communities that we can achieve the transformation of local transport that is still needed in so many areas. The Bill will create real, new opportunities for local communities, and I urge every local authority to exploit those new opportunities to their fullest potential. I ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to vote against the Opposition amendment, and I commend the Bill to the House.
	 Question put, That the amendment be made:—
	 The House proceeded to a Division.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

The House having divided: Ayes 156, Noes 347.

Question accordingly negatived.
	 Main Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 62 (Amendment on second or third reading), and agreed to.
	 Bill accordingly read a Second time.

LOCAL TRANSPORT BILL  [LORDS] (PROGRAMME)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 83A(7) (Programme Motions),
	That the following provisions shall apply to the Local Transport Bill [ Lords]:
	 Committal
	1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
	 Proceedings in Public Bill Committee
	2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 8th May 2008.
	3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
	 Consideration and Third Reading
	4. Proceedings on consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.
	5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
	6. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on consideration and Third Reading.
	 Other proceedings
	7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of any message from the Lords) may be programmed. —[Mr. David.]
	 Question agreed to.

DEFERRED DIVISIONS

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 41A(3) (Deferred divisions),
	That, at this day's sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Motions in the name of Secretary Hazel Blears relating to Local Government and Secretary Alan Johnson relating to the National Health Service. —[Mr. David.]
	 Question agreed to.

LOCAL TRANSPORT BILL  [LORDS] [MONEY]

Queen's recommendation having been signified—
	 Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 52 (Money resolutions and ways and means resolutions in connection with bills),
	That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Local Transport Bill [ Lords], it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:
	(a) any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by a Minister of the Crown or government department, and
	(b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided. —[Mr. David.]
	 Question agreed to.

LOCAL TRANSPORT BILL  [LORDS[ [WAYS AND MEANS]

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuan t to Standing Order No. 52 (Money resolutions and ways and means resolutions in connection with bills),
	That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Local Transport Bill [ Lords], it is expedient to authorise—
	(1) the charging of fees in respect of the cancellation or continuation in force of the registration of services under section 6 of the Transport Act 1985;
	(2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund. —[Mr. David.]
	 Question agreed to.

EUROPEAN COMMUNITY DOCUMENTS

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 119(9) (European Committees),

Insolvency and Second Chances

That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 13832/07, Commission Communication, Overcoming the Stigma of Business Failure—for a Second Chance Policy—implementing the Lisbon partnership for growth and jobs; agrees that it is desirable to make a distinction between honest and dishonest failure; acknowledges the Commission's assertion that Member States need to encourage entrepreneurs who have failed through no fault of their own to try again; and further acknowledges that the interests of creditors of the failed business, and potential creditors, suppliers and customers who support the new venture need to be sufficiently protected. —[ Mr. David .]
	 Question agreed to.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: I propose to put motions 7 and 8 together.

DELEGATED LEGISLATION

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6) (Delegated Legislation Committees),

Local Government

That the draft Bedfordshire (Structural Changes) Order 2008, which was laid before this House on 10th March, be approved.

National Health Service

That the draft Local Involvement Networks (Duty of Services-Providers to Allow Entry) Regulations 2008, which were laid before this House on 18(th) February, be approved. —[Mr. David.]
	 Question agreed to.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: I propose to put motions 9 to 12 together.
	 Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6) (Delegated Legislation Committees),

Children and Young Persons

That the draft Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 (Prescribed Criteria) (Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2008, which were laid before this House on 5th March, be approved.

Town and Country Planning

That the draft Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications and Deemed Applications) (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2008, which were laid before this House on 27th February, be approved.

Betting, Gaming and Lotteries

That the draft Categories of Casino Regulations 2008, which were laid before this House on 26th February, be approved.
	That the draft Gambling (Geographical Distribution of Large and Small Casino Premises Licences) Order 2008, which was laid before this House on 26th February, be approved. —[Mr. David.]
	 Question agreed to .

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Ordered,
	That, at the sitting on Monday 31st March, Standing Order No. 17 (Delegated legislation (negative procedure)) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of Mr David Cameron relating to Banking (S.I., 2008, No. 432). —[Mr. David.]

JUSTICE

Ordered,
	That David Howarth be discharged from the Justice Committee and Mr David Heath be added. —[Rosemary McKenna, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.]

PETITIONS

Hugh Sexey's Hospital

David Heath: I am pleased to have the opportunity to present a petition on the subject of the future of primary care, and I am indebted to my constituent, Mr. Ted Damamme, who raised the petition with fellow residents of the historic Hugh Sexey's hospital in Bruton. The petition is signed by the master of Hugh Sexey's hospital, the Right Reverend Neville Chamberlain, and the other residents. It expresses concern that I share, despite the reassurances of Ministers, that a policy of introducing polyclinics, particularly in rural areas, will do irreparable damage to general practice, which is so much appreciated.
	The petition states:
	The Humble Petition of the Rt. Rev. Neville Chamberlain (Master of Hugh Sexey's Hospital) and others of like disposition,
	Sheweth,
	That Her Majesty's Government's plans for the re-organisation of primary care in the country, with particular reference to rural areas such as theirs, will dramatically effect the way in which General Practice is currently organised and funded, and will severely harm the services they currently receive from their excellent local surgery.
	As residents of Hugh Sexey's Hospital, a remarkable retirement home, where the average age of the residents is 80+, and where every effort is made to remain self-sufficient and independent (constantly advocated as a desirable object), the loss of their local surgery would be catastrophic.
	Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House shall call on Her Majesty's Government to reconsider its plans, and treat each differing area, urban and rural, to detailed consideration, with particular reference to the needs of vulnerable groups in each community, and not allow public money to be taken away from local NHS surgeries and given to private companies.
	And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c.
	[P000160]

Means Tested Benefits

Jo Swinson: I am pleased to submit a petition on adjusting the permitted earnings disregard. The petition is presented on behalf of FOCUS, or Freedom of Choice United Services, which is an organisation within the Richmond Fellowship Scotland that campaigns to challenge stigma and improve the conditions of people on incapacity benefit. The petition, which has been signed by 3,512 people to date, seeks to help people on mean-tested incapacity benefit by raising the permitted earnings disregard. Raising the earnings disregard will allow people receiving the benefit to work and to earn more, by easing the limits placed on them in the work place. The petition states:
	Permitted earnings enables people to increase their skills and confidence in the knowledge that their benefits will not be affected. In some cases this can be a stepping stone to future employment.
	The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to introduce legislation making an adjustment to the £20 Permitted Earnings disregard to get it back to its original value and that this revised amount is then increased each year in line with inflation.
	And the Petitioners remain, etc.
	[P000130]

CO-OPERATIVE MODEL IN EDUCATION (PORTSMOUTH)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. —[Mr. David.]

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I am grateful for the opportunity to raise a matter that is very important indeed, namely how we can use co-operative values to improve education in such places as Portsmouth. I am very pleased that we have opened the first co-operative trust school, at Reddish Vale technology college. I want to explore whether this approach would help to raise educational attainment in my constituency of Portsmouth, North.
	Nowhere is education more important than in such cities as Portsmouth, where throughout the '80s and early '90s too many of our young people were denied their chance in life, held back by crumbling schools and chronic underinvestment from central Government. Too many people who, given the opportunity, would have gone far were left without qualifications or skills.
	It is fair to say that since 1997 the situation has markedly improved. In Portsmouth, planning has begun on a five-year project to redesign, rebuild, refurbish or remodel all the city's secondary schools between now and 2012, as part of the Building Schools for the Future project. Results are improving, too. In 1997, only 26 per cent. of our young people in Portsmouth, North got five good GCSEs. That figure has now doubled to 54 per cent., but that means that nearly half our young people are still missing out.
	The issue is not just about qualifications; it is about self-worth, self-esteem and self-confidence, about giving young people the belief that they, too, can succeed—the self-belief that in many middle-class homes is instilled from the very start. Still too many young people in Portsmouth think that university is the preserve of the middle classes and something that "isn't for them". Too many still leave school to take low-paid work, with no prospect of training or advancement.
	Education is vital—too vital, I think, to be left to the academic world alone. Mutuo, the co-operative think-tank, has suggested that
	"there is now a need and an opportunity to develop new solutions and models of service delivery that can unleash the benefits of commitment from a wider range of stakeholder groups."
	I wholeheartedly agree. City academies and trust schools go some of the way, but for them really to work, they must be truly accountable. That is where co-operative principles come in. With the move towards trust schools, there is a unique opportunity for co-operatives to influence and develop schools further, to build on existing experience and to forge closer links with the local community. Parents, teachers and local people would all have the opportunity to become trust members and would all be able to have their say about daily decisions and the priorities of most importance to them.
	One of the biggest challenges, especially in socially deprived areas, is ensuring that parents have the confidence and the skills to play their part. If the parents have had a bad experience in school, they are understandably reluctant to come forward. The modern co-operative movement has a proud record of community participation and involvement over its long history. Co-operative trust schools will be able to draw on considerable experiences to deliver results.
	By the end of last year, some 300 schools across England were either trust schools or in the pipeline to become trust schools. In my view, through greater collaboration and through mergers of successful schools, we can pave the way to achieving the rising standards that we seek.
	For the co-operative movement, engagement with education is nothing new. Education and opportunity have been driving co-operative ideals since the very beginning. Education was one of the guiding principles of the Rochdale pioneers, who are generally regarded as the founders of the modern co-operative movement. As co-operative societies became successful, they quickly developed their own educational programmes, together with reading rooms, libraries, meeting halls, and social and cultural activities. By the late 19th century, they had created national structures to share resources and materials, and had introduced classes, study programmes and examinations for members. They pioneered correspondence courses and study circles, formed their own college, and supported the development of co-operative colleges in many other parts of the world. Active engagement and a clear set of values that resonated with the schools were the formulae for success.

David Taylor: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and fellow Labour/Co-operative MP for giving way. She is perhaps about to mention the fact that the co-operative movement also developed its own political party, a sister party to the Labour party. Is she surprised that, on the Benches opposite, where there has been a recent expression—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It is out of order, in an Adjournment debate of this kind, to make a point of that nature. This is a personal motion that has been brought forward by the hon. Member for Portsmouth, North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry).

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. That is a point that I might come back to later in my speech.
	The set of values and commitment to active engagement was also one of the reasons why many of the schools became part of the network and clearly wanted to work with co-operative enterprises. But what does a co-operative model mean for education in the early part of the 21st century? Are co-operative values still relevant? I believe so. By harnessing co-operative values in education, we can raise standards and ensure greater parental and community involvement. A co-operative model means that, rather than pitting school against school, we can increase collaboration and co-operation among schools in order to share best practice and resources. My right hon. Friend and fellow co-operator the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families has suggested that there is
	"significant future potential for a co-operative model"
	in education, and I quite agree. If we think about what makes a good school, it is clear that the involvement of teachers, pupils, parents and the community is what makes that good school successful. It is precisely this involvement that co-operative values are able to instil.
	One of the reasons that I am proud to be a Labour and Co-operative MP is that co-operative socialism is not just a lofty set of ideals divorced from everyday life, but practical politics with a strong history of delivery. Building on its strong and long-standing commitment to education, the co-operative and mutual sector is now actively engaged with a number of schools. It is working with a number of specialist business and enterprise colleges, and is playing a key part in the Manchester academy programme.
	By instilling co-operative values and ideas into the curriculum, schools have seen a dramatic effect, significantly enriching the experiences of young people. Levels of student attainment and Ofsted reports clearly demonstrate the benefits of using co-operative values to deliver the breadth of curriculum areas and personal development. Schools using the values as a framework have made exceptional progress in raising levels of achievement. For example, Sir Thomas Boughey high school and co-operative business and enterprise college in Staffordshire has raised the proportion of pupils achieving five or more GCSEs from 46 per cent. in 2004 to 79 per cent. in 2007.
	As I said earlier, as well as instilling co-operative values as part of the curriculum, the first co-operative trust school has now opened at Reddish Vale technology college. It is the first of its kind in the UK to be based on a mutual structure, with a wide range of organisations focusing on education and training, employability and local regeneration. Jenny Campbell, the head teacher of Reddish Vale, has said:
	"The Trust is a fantastic opportunity for local people to have a greater role in the life of the school. We hope that as the trust develops it will enable better life-long opportunities to all those involved. As the trust develops it will be down to the members who will volunteer to make a difference locally. The developments will give huge opportunities for the curriculum inside school, linked to a wider learning community across Reddish and Brinnington."
	There is now a clear potential to develop these new models for trust schools—

Linda Gilroy: May I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important Adjournment debate? Does she welcome the fact that there is an application in for a co-operative trust in a performing arts school, the Lipson community college in Plymouth, which will build real community cohesion in a way that Conservative Members, on the basis of the spin we hear from them, simply cannot hope to achieve?

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and I am very pleased to hear about those developments in Plymouth. Perhaps if we can get a similar model in Portsmouth, we can draw on Plymouth's experiences to help us to move it forward.
	We have seen new mutuals in other parts of the UK public sector—leisure trusts and foundation hospital trusts, for example, which are models built on traditional public sector values. They are rooted in and actively engage the local community in running key services.
	I think there are three main reasons to develop the co-operative model. First, it draws on a long-established heritage of self-help and self-improvement and a globally shared set of values, which could make a positive contribution to the outcomes schools are seeking to deliver and provide the basis for a distinct contribution to diversity of provision. Secondly, the co-operative approach is based on offering membership to different groups of people with an interest in education, such as parents, staff and the local community, and provides a mechanism for active engagement of those stakeholders. Finally, it can provide a mechanism for accountability, helping to ensure that those in positions of responsibility remain sensitive to the needs, views and aspirations of the different groups of interested people, and that the respective views of these stakeholders can be balanced in an appropriate way to suit the needs of the organisation. That is how accountability can become a driver of efficiency and success.
	The co-operative trust school model offers opportunities to build new channels of engagement locally, involving students, parents, employers, further and higher education providers and local organisations. If successfully channelled through the trust, it should enable the school to strengthen links with the local community and benefit from the support of a wide range of local expertise.
	Educational research has repeatedly demonstrated that one of the most important factors in improving educational achievement is raising the level of parental involvement. Offering membership of the trust to parents—not just those of the young people currently attending the school, but those of its feeder schools and destination colleges—could provide a powerful mechanism for actively engaging them in their children's learning.
	Perhaps of even greater significance are the opportunities in an educational establishment for member development. An important element of the co-operative heritage is the part played by the co-operative organisation in providing opportunities for members to develop their own potential through education, participating in their organisation and using the membership processes for self-improvement. Lifelong learning has been a core element of a co-operative approach for many years. In areas of high deprivation and social need, that could be significant.
	I acknowledge your earlier ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but it is important to mention the so-called Conservative co-operative movement. I had expected the Conservative Benches to be brimming with people and ideas about how we can embed co-operative values into cherished public services. The right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) has said that it is a "shame" that the co-operative movement is associated with the left. I am sorry to disappoint him, but I would contend that that is no accident, because it is the Labour party that has unstintingly supported co-operatives over the years—[Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] We should not forget that it was the Building Societies Act 1986 that enabled massive waves of demutualisation—in typical Tory fashion, promoting a get-rich-quick scheme for the few at the expense of everybody else. Nor should we forget that it was the Tory Government who abolished the co-operative development agencies, which provided support for social enterprises, or that we had to wait for a Labour Government before we could update co-operative legislation in Parliament.
	It is indeed Labour that has the proven track record with the co-operative movement. It includes 29 Labour/Co-op MPs and I am delighted to see so many of them in their places supporting this evening's debate. We have conducted a review of co-operative and credit union legislation and backed the establishment of new mutuals in all sorts of areas, including, of course, the launch of the Reddish Vale technology college. That is what Labour and the co-op movement have achieved together—not making speeches or jumping on bandwagons, but taking solid action built on our shared values. The Opposition continue to talk about those issues, but they are merely copying their neighbours' work—something that was very much frowned upon when I was at school!
	How do we take this issue forward? I will discuss with the LEA and local schools how the co-operative approach could work in Portsmouth. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families, as a Labour and Co-operative Member, takes a profound interest in co-operative values, and how we can embed them in our public sector organisations, particularly in education.
	Does the Minister agree that an expansion of the co-operative model would be an excellent way of achieving the step change in educational achievement in constituencies such as mine? What help and support could he offer LEAs such as Portsmouth, and individual schools, if they went down that route? Education is the key to unlocking the potential of all our young people, and we owe it to them to do all that we can to achieve that.

Jim Knight: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families and I discussed whether there was a model for a mutual response by Ministers to an Adjournment debate from the Dispatch Box. We decided, however, that such a response would probably be ruled out of order. It falls to me, with the silent co-operation and support of my mutual and right hon. Friend, to respond to the debate.
	I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry) on securing the debate. She is a strong advocate of her constituents' interests, and her speech demonstrates her obvious passion for improving schools in Portsmouth. As Schools Minister, I very much share that passion. I was in Portsmouth recently to discuss education with some of her constituents. The trust school model, and particularly a co-operative trust school model, can help us to achieve such improvement, not just in Portsmouth but across the country.
	Collaborative and co-operative working is essential for raising standards across public services, particularly in schools. We want to use every ounce of vision, talent and know-how that we can muster from across the statutory, private and third sectors to improve outcomes for young people. Trust arrangements are a crucial way of capturing that. At their heart, trusts have governance models that encourage sustainable relationships with external partners that can bring renewed drive and expertise to the school. Partners can vary from universities and businesses to charities and community groups, and they can work with one school or across a number of schools nationally or locally. There is no one blueprint for what a trust looks like.
	What all arrangements have in common is the capacity to transform schools for the better. That, to use the parlance of the day, is their raison d'être. We know from the experience of voluntary-aided schools and academies that long-term relationships with external partners strengthen the ethos and leadership of a school. They can also help us to create a more diverse and enriched system, providing greater choice and opportunity for pupils and partners. For all those reasons, the Government are actively encouraging schools to acquire trust status.
	Since we introduced the arrangement last September, 42 trust schools have begun operating, and a further 270 are in the pipeline. I am delighted to say that the Co-operative college is currently acting as a trust partner for six schools, in Doncaster, Stockport—we have heard about Reddish Vale from my hon. Friend—Newcastle, Norfolk, Essex, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon (Angela E. Smith), and Kingston upon Hull. Clearly, where trust arrangements can help us to put more control over schools in the hands of parents and the communities that they serve, we should warmly encourage them. That is very much the spirit of the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North, and I agree with it wholeheartedly.
	My hon. Friend has explained the co-operative movement's links with schools and the local community in Portsmouth. Of course, that makes it a very interesting potential trust partner for the area. I agree with her that acquiring trust status would allow the movement to build further partnerships with schools, as well as forging stronger community links between education providers, businesses and other local partners. I am sure that the co-operative movement would have a great deal to contribute in Portsmouth, helping to drive up standards through a formal long-term working relationship with local schools. I would welcome further discussions between my officials and the movement to take that forward. I will return to that towards the end of my speech.
	There is also an important national context, which could be very exciting for the future of schools around the country. As my hon. Friend points out, the co-operative model for trust schools is already being trialled—I have listed the schools involved. Much mention has been made of Reddish Vale technology college, and the Andrew Marvell business and enterprise college is another example. Both are pathfinder trust schools.
	We are therefore already laying the ground for getting the co-operative movement more involved in education. I believe that its influence can grow in the months and years ahead. My officials are already in discussion with the co-operative movement about a possible national model for co-operative trust schools. I look forward to receiving their detailed proposals with interest, because I see real, unique strengths in co-operative trust schools: a strong set of values informing the ethos of the school—values that are rooted in community self-help, as my hon. Friend described, in ethical enterprise and in achieving more together than on our own. That ethos in turn creates a strong stakeholder model involving parents, staff and pupils in producing an education service that meets the needs of, and is directly accountable to, its local community.
	We know that the biggest determinant of a good school is well-led, strong teaching. We know that the biggest determinant of the success of a child is good parenting. We know that pupil involvement in schools and their own learning improves results further. Co-operative schools are a fantastic opportunity to deliver all three of those things. This is the opportunity to do that, with this Government delivering on co-operative schools.
	Some comment has been made contrasting our approach with that of the Opposition, who are, sadly, not in their places. Their foray into this territory appears no more than a cheap attempt to grab a few headlines—another "here today, gone tomorrow" cheap trick.

David Taylor: Does my hon. Friend agree it is not possible to laminate a political philosophy like co-operation on to an unacceptable party such as the Tories and hope that they will get away with it in this context or, indeed, in any other?

Jim Knight: I mentioned the importance of values in informing the ethos of co-operative schools, and the values that the co-operative movement stands for are not the sort that can be invented overnight. They are written into our DNA as a party and movement. They cannot be magicked into existence for the purpose of a press release. In, I think, November last year, the Leader of the Opposition launched the Conservative co-operative movement with a grand hurrah, specifically mentioning the idea of co-operative schools. Obviously, they had already been invented. He had come to that a little late. Since then, however, we have heard, well, nothing. Where are they now? Nowhere. I have tried to find out more. I visited www.conservativecoops.com. The site has a few stories about food co-ops on its one page and nothing more. There is nothing about schools. The Conservative party's commitment to co-ops is devoid of values, substance or any action. No surprise there then.
	We can remain confident that Labour is the party of co-operation. It is written into our DNA, as I said, and we will continue to develop mutualism and co-operation in the public sector, championed by, among others, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who is, I think, the third Cabinet member to be a Co-operative Member of Parliament; the Prime Minister's Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon (Angela E. Smith)—I am delighted to see her in the Chamber—my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Alun Michael), who was, I think, the second Cabinet member to be a Co-operative MP; and my other hon. Friends who are here this evening.
	Let me return to the specific situation in Portsmouth and make a suggestion that may help my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North. She should be aware that the local authority in Portsmouth is currently considering its plans for wave 6 of Building Schools for the Future, the capital programme for building and refurbishing schools. We are very interested in how we can link capital improvements to schools in an area to improvements in the diversity and self-governance of schools. In other words, we want to renew both the fabric and the philosophy and governance of schools at the same time, to maximise the impact.
	We expect local authorities to look carefully at the potential benefits of bringing new providers into the system and enhancing parental choice. That of course involves considering whether trust partnerships can add value to the process of rebuilding and realigning schools in their area.

Linda Gilroy: Does my hon. Friend agree that the co-operative governance model offers opportunities to bind in businesses such as those in Plymouth's cultural industries with institutions such as the performing arts college in Lipson that no other model can really offer?

Jim Knight: I certainly agree with that. It is some time since I visited Lipson community college, but I was very impressed by what I saw there. Plymouth is a centre for the creative industries, and if that college can pursue a co-operative trust model and bind in long-term relationships on the basis of co-operative principles and a co-operative ethos while incorporating strong partners from the creative industries in the region and the sub-region around Plymouth, it will be an extremely good proposition for parents and learners in my hon. Friend's city.
	I do not know the extent to which my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North has discussed the matter with her local authority, but this would clearly be a good time for her to do so, because it should be on the authority's agenda as one of a range of options for raising school standards. I am sure that the authority would welcome discussion with the co-operative movement about the contribution that it could make in her city.
	The Government welcome with open arms any organisation or movement within reason—and certainly one as ethical as the co-operative movement—that demonstrates a clear, unambiguous commitment to improving the quality of schools through trust arrangements. Everything I know about the co-operative movement suggests to me that it can do exactly that in Portsmouth and across the country, so I welcome my hon. Friend's championing of its cause. I hope very much that we shall see her efforts bear fruit in the form of improved standards, more choice, more stakeholder engagement and accountability in her city, and more control for parents and children in Portsmouth and beyond in the years to come.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Adjourned accordingly at fourteen minutes to Eight o'clock.